Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 21st, 2023

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Mr. Chair, I think there are two important things to note about the function of the actual building. One of them is that the building houses between 20 and 40 full-time and part-time staff. Think of groundskeepers—

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

Excuse me. The barn employs 20 full-time staff...?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

It's the touchdown workstation—

[Jake Stewart, Conservative, Miramichi—Grand Lake, NB]

I didn't ask you that, though. I'm asking you about the barn.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Stewart, I'm afraid that is your time. I know we're coming back to you.

I appreciate that.

Mr. Blois, sooner than expected, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Look, I think it's important to set some context. I said this at the last meeting: It's no wonder that we don't have an ability to replace the residence of the prime minister regardless of who's in there. We have Stornoway, which is the residence of the official opposition that Mr. Poilievre currently sits in, but the way that we denigrate the process of managing our national heritage buildings in this country.... With what I just listened to over the last six minutes, it's no wonder why we can't actually overcome some of these realities.

I do think there has to be scrutiny, and I'm going to get into that in a moment, but with this bombastic way in which we go about it, Mr. Chair, I think most Canadians watching should be a bit disappointed in how we go about it, because it is concerning, in my way....

That being said, Mr. Nussbaum, at the same time, we are accountable to Canadians. You highlighted correctly that the NCC is independent of government in the way that these decisions around maintenance and upkeep on national historic buildings don't become completely politicized.

I want to highlight, maybe for Canadians who are watching, that on the budget you are allocated, your board of directors is accountable for identifying the projects that you see fit to move forward. As I understand it, you thought this project was important because, as you mentioned, there are somewhere between 20 to 40 groundskeepers at Rideau Hall who use this particular building to store equipment, to store different dynamics with maintaining the properties.

I just want to highlight that the NCC, in 2013, under the Harper government, first identified this as a priority, correct? During the Harper government's tenure...not the Harper government, but during 2013, the NCC identified that this was going to have to be a project because the existing facility on site was coming to the end of its useful life. Am I correct in saying that?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Mr. Chair, through you, the answer is yes.

In terms of the appearance of this project in the corporate plan, the need to replace these four buildings and build a new service, maintenance and storage facility first appeared in our corporate plan in 2013-14.

The way the governance of our corporate plan works is that it's approved first by a board of directors, submitted to the responsible minister and ultimately approved by the Treasury Board. That's the governance route in terms of how the NCC's corporate plan is approved.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

You provide recommendations up to the government on what you see is objectively the best pathway forward. I want to understand, then. Had this building not been replaced, there would have been a concern about how you actually would continue to maintain.... I assume this building might actually have been deemed unsafe at some point for the workers who were in facility, correct?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Mr. Chair, yes.

There were actually four separate buildings deemed to be at the end of their useful life because of safety and health concerns. These were the four buildings that were demolished to make way, ultimately, for the new modernized facility.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Otherwise, either we would have been having employees working in perhaps unsafe working conditions in buildings that were at the end of their useful life or, I guess, we would have been expected to keep equipment—tractors and different elements—required to maintain Rideau Cottage out in the elements. Is that a fair assessment of what would have happened had this not been built?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Yes.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

You mentioned the $3-million decontamination cost. In terms of those four separate buildings, the $3 million was associated with tearing them down, essentially, and then remediating the ground, because they had existed maybe even since Confederation—or certainly for a long time, for over 100 years. Is that what I am to understand?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

The total project budget did include the cost of demolition of the four buildings and decontamination of the soils underneath them. I don't have the exact figures—those two numbers—in front of me, but we could figure that out—

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

But essentially around $3 million was associated with tearing down buildings, re-establishing the land and decontaminating it, and then approximately $5 million was associated with this new build of the infrastructure that was being replaced. Is that correct?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

There were costs associated. I don't think they were as high as $3 million, but it is important to note that there are also, of course, soft costs. There are contingencies. There are risk figures in there as well.

You may have a more accurate description of the costs in front of you. I can certainly pull that out.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

I just heard the Conservative member talk about the costs associated with transition to net zero, with the idea that it's not important for the Government of Canada to also be greening and reducing its decarbonization, its own footprint in Canada, but I do think there are legitimate questions to ask about the costs associated with that.

Do you have an estimate for this committee? Was the cost an additional 10% to be able to make those buildings net zero? Was it 20%? It's important work, and we need to do it across the board, not just within the Government of Canada but across the country. Do you have a sense of that for this committee?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Mr. Chairman, I don't know that I can give a specific percentage. What I can say is that not only do we have a legislative responsibility to move towards net-zero carbon but also often what you find is that over the lifetime of the facility being built, you're going to recoup more than the additional costs of construction in terms of energy savings.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Finally—I have about 15 seconds—Pomerleau was ultimately selected. How many different contractors put bids forward?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Mr. Chair, as I mentioned, Pomerleau was the construction manager. I know they oversaw at least 20 public tenders—open tenders for subcontractors to bid—in order to have the various disciplines of the project undertaken.

[Kody Blois, Liberal, Kings—Hants, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I understand.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Mr. Nussbaum, I did hear an offer to submit some documents that would break out the costs. If we could take you up on that, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Vignola, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here with us today, gentlemen.

I understand that the building known as the barn, which is actually a garage, is located on a heritage site. When I look at the costs and see the final product, I wonder what happened to the heritage part. It looks more like an older building from the 1970s than a heritage building. Had heritage factors been integrated, that might explain the $8‑million price tag given the knowledge and expertise that would have been involved.

As I understand it, Pomerleau won the contract and subcontracted all the elements to another 20 or so companies. Doesn't the National Capital Commission have project managers and engineers who would have been able to oversee the work of those 20‑odd companies? They could have been awarded contracts directly, which would have saved the fees ranging from 10% to 30% that Pomerleau ended up collecting.

Doesn't the NCC have project managers and engineers?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Thank you for the question.

The answer is twofold. Yes, the NCC has in its employ a design and construction branch with professionals who are the interface between the NCC and the construction manager.

The second part of the answer is that when the NCC made the decision in 2018 to hire a construction manager to help with the implementation of dozens and dozens of projects, it was made through a decision about efficiency. If you go through a more traditional model, a general contractor, that requires hiring additional procurement and financial and project management services. It was deemed at that time that it was more efficient and a better use of public funds to hire a construction management to oversee those projects.

But yes, absolutely, there are staff within the NCC who play a role of coordinating projects with construction management staff.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

So, did the employees whose job it is to coordinate projects have to coordinate with Pomerleau, which in turn had to coordinate the work of the 20 subcontractors?

[Tobi Nussbaum]

Mr. Chair, I would situate it a little bit differently. The construction manager is ultimately responsible for the delivery of the project, but as the client, the NCC has to work closely in the development of designs and plans, in assuring project integrity and in playing a challenge function on costs.