Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 23rd, 2023

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For my second round, I'd like to address the Auditor General about Trans Mountain.

Ms. Hogan, in your comments you pointed out that:

for a second consecutive year, ... the Trans Mountain Corporation's year-end financial statements disclosed a significant uncertainty about the Crown corporation's ability to continue operating.

Can you tell us more about your level of uncertainty with respect to Trans Mountain?

[Karen Hogan]

It's important to mention that it is a Crown corporation which manages the pipeline. It's a separate company, and we audit it jointly with a third party. Together, we issued an opinion on Trans Mountain's financial statements. The Crown corporation pointed out that there was some uncertainty about its ability to finance all its activities over the coming year. As auditors, it was important for us to underscore this uncertainty in our report. Usually, doing that stems from the company's uncertainty about its capacity to discharge its liabilities over the coming year. In this particular instance, it's because the construction costs for the new pipeline are increasing.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Do you have numbers to quantify what it would cost the Crown and the taxpayers if Trans Mountain were to cease operations?

[Karen Hogan]

Mr. Matte has some numbers that he could give you, but I would also encourage you to look at the corporation's financial statements.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Yes, of course, but I'd like to hear about them now.

[Etienne Matte, Principal, Office of the Auditor General]

On December 31, 2022, construction costs totalled $21 billion.

[Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné, Bloc, Terrebonne, QC]

Well, $21 billion for construction costs is certainly not chicken feed.

You know, enhanced Crown corporation accountability is something I really care about. I'd like Crown corporations to start disclosing their financial statements, expenses and other details more fully. If the Auditor General were able to audit the financial statements of Crown corporations in the same way as they do for the departments, cases like this one could be avoided, or at least mitigated.

Auditor General, do you think it would be appropriate to have more accountability for Crown corporations, and for Trans Mountain, the case we are looking at now?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

A brief answer, please.

[Karen Hogan]

I believe that the Crown corporation mentioned in its notes that there was some uncertainty linked to its operations, and that's why we were able to mention it in our audit report. I know that the member would like more transparency, Mr. Chair.

I think that the committee made a recommendation to the government on the need for more accountability and transparency from all Crown corporations. I'm still waiting for the government's response to that recommendation.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, it's your last round for two and a half minutes, please.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I do want to follow up on some of the questions related to climate mitigation and climate-related costs, in particular to Finance.

How does Finance Canada quantify or create a better analysis, or create any analysis, in relation to natural disaster impacts, in addition to things like lost infrastructure or damage to that infrastructure due to natural disaster, and supports for those impacted by natural disaster? How does Finance Canada quantify that?

[Chris Forbes]

I'm wondering if the question is on the reporting basis for this. There are the reports, about which I would probably turn to Mr. Huppé, but if you're just asking how we think about these things economically, I'm not totally sure I understand the question.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Maybe I'll go to Mr. Huppé, because that's more about what I'm asking, but I'm actually curious about your response on that second part too.

Mr. Huppé.

[Roch Huppé]

I'm sorry. Was your question in relation to the different reports that we would have on that front?

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Yes. In particular, for example, if I were to look at volume 3, section 2, on the supplementary information required by the Financial Administration Act of the Public Accounts of Canada, it speaks to information regarding losses of public money and property. What are examples of losses of public property due to destruction or damage that was caused by natural disaster, like hurricanes, forest fires and things like that? Is that where I'd find that information?

[Roch Huppé]

Yes. You would find part of that information, obviously, in this year's under “Losses of...property”. A very substantial portion of these losses—and it was quite an increase from last year—is due to Hurricane Fiona, as an example. Yes, the destruction of government property as it relates to storms or fires would appear in volume 3—absolutely.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

I've noticed, looking at last year's and even particularly next year's numbers, that we're seeing a pattern starting to emerge. Do you believe there will be a greater loss of the public money in the years ahead due to natural disaster?

[Roch Huppé]

That's outside my pay grade, honestly.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Looking at the data, Mr. Huppé....

[Roch Huppé]

What we do know is that climate change is a real issue and that we are seeing more and more of these types of storms affecting Canada, as an example. But I wouldn't rely on me to tell you exactly how much we are going to [Inaudible—Editor].

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Please be very brief, Mr. Desjarlais.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Do you think that next year we'll see a larger amount?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Just be careful. You'll be back here next year.

[Roch Huppé]

I have no clue. It depends on [Inaudible—Editor].

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Very good, Mr. Desjarlais. Thank you.

We're turning now to you, Mr. McCauley, for your last five-minute round.