Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[Nelson Barbosa, Director General, Community Infrastructure, Department of Indigenous Services]

Thank you for the question, and thank you for the invite to the committee again.

I think there are three foundational factors that lead to conditions where there may be unsafe drinking water.

The first is largely about infrastructure and infrastructure investments. That includes the establishment of clean drinking water systems and waste-water systems and the distribution systems that take clean water to taps and into schools and health centres. That is a huge part of the investments that have been made since 2015 and that continue to be made to this day.

The second point that probably requires illumination is around operators and the people who make systems work. First nations hire these operators to manage their services, and there are many first nations that have excellent service providers. Human capacity and capacity developments have been a concerted area that was pointed to as part of the OAG's report where additional investment was required, and we have seen those investments since 2015.

The third is about relationships. I believe the minister talked about the importance of relationships in the education context, and that would extend to water and to many other aspects. I think the joint stewardship of water among provinces, territories, first nations and municipalities is critical: protecting source water and ensuring that sources of water are clean for generations to come. The establishment of agreements between first nations and municipalities is another area where we're seeing success and it is leading to the historic reduction of long-term drinking advisories in first nations in this country.

Thank you.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you very much for that fulsome reply.

Minister, do you have confidence that the progress that has been made, which has been substantial, is going to be maintained? What else can we do to make sure that we never go back to the situation we had before 2015?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much, MP Bradford, for that question.

I would say, yes, the progress needs to be maintained. I would say that I have confidence, with a government that understands the importance of equity for first nations community functioning, in maintaining that progress. I would say that the work we're doing on co-development of first nations drinking water legislation to replace the repealed Harper-era legislation will also be a piece of the puzzle to maintain the ingredients that are necessary to support first nations in continued access to clean water.

I would say that we need to work closely with provinces, territories and municipalities to protect the source water, as Mr. Barbosa pointed out. Many times, the Government of Canada is in the very difficult position of replacing access to clean source water because of the poisoning of local water in communities. I think about Tataskweyak, for example, whose local source water has been poisoned, some say irrevocably. The work to replace Tataskweyak's access to source water is under way right now. It's the building of a water pipe 40 kilometres long to a non-contaminated freshwater source.

Those kinds of things have devastation, by the way, not just on the physical health of communities but on the emotional health. When I was in Tataskweyak, the grief that people talked about in witnessing the death of that lake and the death of the many animals that often still drink at that lake, and the lack of access for their children to be able to play in water that had been in their territory from time immemorial, was a deep and profound grief that I bore witness to, and that is not an unusual story.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you for that.

It is important to hear just how much the outcomes change when the programs and policies are based on self-determination. What's the scale of first nations control right now? Would it be possible for the government to transfer oversight of water systems to first nations entirely?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

In most cases, I would say that first nations are in control of their water systems, with various degrees of support and external resources to provide that support. In some communities that are very small, one of the challenges is having water operators who can provide the ongoing technical expertise to ensure the water is clean and to keep the plant running. In those cases, first nations have contracts with external water support.

I think one of the best success stories is the Atlantic water authority. Maybe I can leave that for Nelson to talk a bit about. It's such an amazing story of collective work to protect water.

[Nelson Barbosa]

Thank you for the question.

First, first nations are the owners and operators of their water systems. The role of Indigenous Services Canada is to support that ownership and the control of first nations over their systems, whether it be through capital, operator supports or partnerships.

In terms of transfer, one—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Please keep it short, Mr. Barbosa. The MP's time is already up.

[Nelson Barbosa]

Transfer is a core component. We would like to talk about the AFNWA, the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority, and their assumption of the care and control of water for thousands. There will be 4,500 homes managed by the Atlantic First Nations Water Authority in Atlantic Canada in building the first municipal model in this country controlled by first nations. That was done by the design and by the efforts of first nations people in Atlantic Canada.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Thank you.

I'll now use my six minutes to ask questions.

Minister Hajdu, thank you again for being here.

I'll briefly review the background of the audits carried out by the Office of the Auditor General of Canada, or OAG. This concerns four separate reports released over the past five years.

In spring 2018, the OAG conducted a performance audit for Indigenous Services Canada. In its message regarding the audit, the OAG called the lack of progress on the indigenous file an “incomprehensible failure.” Those were the OAG's words. That was in 2018, before you took over as minister in 2021.

In February 2021, the OAG released an audit report on access to safe drinking water. That's what we're talking about today.

In 2015, the federal government promised to resolve this long‑standing issue. As of today, the issue still hasn't been resolved.

In May 2021, the OAG's report 11 on health resources for indigenous communities was tabled in the House of Commons. The OAG found that Indigenous Services Canada did not obtain personal protective equipment in accordance with its procurement strategy. This is yet another failure.

In 2022, the OAG released report 8 on emergency management in first nations communities. Indigenous Services Canada didn't give these communities the support needed to manage emergencies. The department invested three and a half times more in response and recovery than in emergency prevention and mitigation. That was in 2022. You were the minister at that time.

I'll give another example.

The OAG found that only four out of seven regional offices developed a regional emergency management plan.

Minister Hajdu, is the situation for indigenous people in Canada still a colossal failure, or can you tell everyone tuning in today that the situation has significantly improved since you became minister?

[John Nater, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

I have a point of order, Madam Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

The bell is ringing for us to vote. We have 28 minutes. As usual, I'll ask for unanimous consent to continue with the questions. We'll then take 10 minutes to vote.

Does the committee agree?

Good.

Minister Hajdu, you have the floor.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much for the question.

I think your list of Auditor General's reports that speak to the ongoing challenge of indigenous people in a systemically oppressive colonizing system is a fair question. What I would say is that, under our federal government, we have put reconciliation at the core under the federal Liberal government.

In 2015, I was very proud to campaign for a Prime Minister who made a commitment to lift all boil water advisories, which was an ambitious commitment but actually set a goal for this country, and to actually reach toward that goal with tangible investments of money, expertise and a new way of doing work with first nations—not imposing solutions on first nations, but working with first nations on solutions. First nations, for many generations, have known that if they could have control, they could do much better.

What I would say is that there has been an increase in indigenous spending by 168% since 2015. Is it enough to close the gap? I fundamentally think that it is not. We know what the gap is in housing and in infrastructure, for example, and in many other spaces, but what I can say is that the partnership with first nations has improved dramatically since 2015. First nations people now feel that they are at the table, that they are in the space where they are making decisions for their communities and where they are working with a federal government that wants to be a willing partner, a fair partner and a supportive partner. That's a sea change since 2015.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Thank you.

As of March 3, 2023, there were still 32 long‑term drinking water advisories. The deadline for implementing long‑term solutions to prevent further drinking water issues in the reserves is 2026.

Do you think that you'll reach your goal of providing access to drinking water, a fundamental right, on every reserve in Canada by 2026?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What I can say is that the communities that still remain with long-term drinking water advisories all have either construction on the go or projects that are complete, and a very few are working on what is an appropriate solution for them. What I can also say is that the fiscal commitment is there to complete all that work.

The speed at which we work is intertwined with self-determination. The federal government's job is to be there with the tools and with the fiscal equity that makes these projects viable and gives people the supports they need to be able to sustain clean water in their community, whether it's equity for operations, whether it's the importance of upgrading systems before they become obsolete and having the fiscal capacity to do that, or whether it's supporting communities with the tools they need to feel comfortable to lift those long-term drinking water advisories, which sometimes communities don't feel comfortable with immediately.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Thank you, Minister Hajdu.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We are there with those tools, and that commitment is a long-term commitment.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

You make it sound like the department is doing everything possible to resolve this very serious issue.

Are you saying that indigenous people are to blame for the lack of drinking water on their reserves?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

No. I said nothing of the sort. In fact, what I have said is that what has been a failure of this government—the Canadian government is what I mean—is ongoing imposition of colonial approaches to community functioning. This country was formed....

Listen, in my opening statement—

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

You're the minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—I acknowledged the unceded and unsurrendered territory of the Algonquin people. This means that land was taken from indigenous people. Children were taken from indigenous people. Power was taken from indigenous people, and resources were taken from indigenous people.

This Liberal government understands that the way to reconciliation is actually ensuring that the tools of self-determination and equity are in place, and I'm really proud of that work, Madam Chair. I certainly would never ever imply that indigenous people are the cause of their own suffering. In fact, it's a colonial system that has caused that suffering, and I think all members of Parliament should know by now the history of this country.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

I find myself often disappointed in this space, so I'll share not my words but the questions of the treaty chiefs of Alberta, who are often my teachers in this work. They supplied me with good questions here that I hope you can address on their behalf. My hope would be that you speak directly to the concerns they have.

You mentioned the framework, the tools and the funding required to end this crisis. First nations also need this to be done. They want to be partners in much of this work but find themselves not in a position where they're feeling heard. You mentioned that they feel heard. That's not what I hear. It's certainly not what they say.

For those who are witnessing this right now, I want to thank the treaty chiefs of Alberta for their leadership in this space and for providing me with very difficult questions that I hope you can answer. I know that you're not going to be here for very long today, so if I can't get through the total list of questions they've provided, I'll submit them to your office, and I hope you can reply.

This is the first one. Can you commit to the pending water legislation that will not leave first nations with the problems that successive governments' policy and lack of adequate funding created? Where is the funding attached to this initiative, particularly in a time of austerity?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, I want to thank the Treaty 8 chiefs myself. I have met with them a number of times on water and on many other issues. In fact, I would agree that the Treaty 8 chiefs have often given me the history lessons that I need to understand not just Treaty 8 issues and historical experiences, but also, certainly, their experiences as communities that have been deeply affected by colonization. I acknowledge the leadership of Treaty 8.

What I would say is that the first nations water legislation has been a process of collaboration, not just with Treaty 8 but certainly with first nations through the AFN, a variety of different first nations deeply affected by boil water advisories who are the litigant group in this case, and many experts and advisers from first nations leadership roles, who have given us a sense of where the legislation should go.

I look forward to being able to table that in this House and to hearing the feedback from first nations. I know that the NDP, the Conservative members and the Liberal members will have thoughtful deliberations on that legislation with the intent of making sure that it's strong and reaches its goal of protecting water for first nations.

[Blake Desjarlais, NDP, Edmonton Griesbach, AB]

What about the austerity portion that they are concerned about?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Well, listen, this government has invested billions and billions of dollars—in fact, at latest count, somewhere in the range of $8 billion and counting—not just on the infrastructure, as I said, but on the ongoing addressing of long-standing operation deficits, supports for training and new models like the Atlantic water authority to ensure we get to this goal.

What I would say through you to the Treaty 8 chiefs is that it is a commitment of this Liberal government that we will be there with the resources needed, with the expertise that communities may want to tap into and with the support for models that first nations people themselves determine are going to be the most useful in protecting the water in their communities.