Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting 88 of the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g) and the motion adopted by the committee on June 19, 2023, the committee is meeting today for its follow‑up study on report 3 entitled “Access to Safe Drinking Water in First Nations Communities — Indigenous Services Canada,” which is found in the 2021 reports 1 to 5 of the Auditor General of Canada.

I would like to welcome the witnesses.

First, we're meeting with the Honourable Patty Hajdu, Minister of Indigenous Services.

Thank you for joining us today. I hope that you can stay with us as long as possible. This meeting is important for the committee members.

From the Department of Crown‑Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs, we're joined by Georgina Lloyd, assistant deputy minister of Northern Affairs.

From the Department of Indigenous Services, we're meeting with Gina Wilson, deputy minister; Joanne Wilkinson, senior assistant deputy minister, regional operations sector; Nelson Barbosa, director general, community infrastructure; Jonathan Allen, senior director; and Curtis Bergeron, director, strategic water management directorate.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for being here.

Minister Hajdu, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Minister of Indigenous Services]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Kwe Kwe. Hello.

I'm so pleased to be with you here on the unsurrendered, unceded territory of the Anishinabe Algonquin people.

Thank you for the invitation. I have with me, as you have noted, a host of officials with deep expertise in the areas of water and education.

I'm thrilled to be here to discuss the two reports by the Auditor General, one on access to clean drinking water in first nations communities and the other on the socio-economic gaps that indigenous people continue to experience. I appreciate the opportunity to have a practical conversation about both of these critical areas of focus.

To do that, I think we have to go back to where we were in 2015. To put it bluntly, the situation was dire. In November 2015, there were 105 long-term drinking water advisories in over 67 first nations communities. Since we took office, first nations have lifted 143 long-term advisories. That sounds weird, doesn't it? That's more than there were in 2015. In fact, as you know, these numbers are not static. Indeed, this reflects the ongoing work of preventing short-term drinking water advisories from becoming long-term as well. There are no more long-term drinking water advisories in Atlantic Canada, Quebec, Alberta or B.C. Today, 96% of all first nations peoples have access to clean water.

As of today, there are 28 long-term drinking water advisories that affect 26 first nations communities, but thanks to first nations leadership and persistence, including their ongoing collaboration with the department, I'm happy to say that there is a plan and a project team is in place to address them all, which is a far cry from the approach taken by the previous government. Out of the 28 remaining, 17 infrastructure projects are complete, and construction is moving on nine more. These represent over 90% of the remaining projects, which is very good news. We're closer than ever to fixing a situation that should have never been in place to begin with.

These figures are important. However, they don't convey the complex obstacles that prevent communities from lifting advisories. Every community faces unique challenges that require unique solutions.

First nations communities need to be in the driver's seat to make the decisions that are best for their needs. For example, two communities in southwestern Ontario, Chippewas of the Thames and Oneida Nation of the Thames, had the option to connect to the provincial water system or to pursue an independent water source. The Oneida Nation of the Thames chose to connect to the existing provincial system because their existing water source wouldn't be able to meet their long-term needs, and construction has started with a target end date of 2025.

The Chippewas of the Thames, which I visited a few months ago, opted for an independent system to ensure that they had full oversight over every component, from treatment to waste-water management. They're currently exploring a potential groundwater source. It will take a full year of monitoring to make sure it can support the community's needs in all seasons.

In both cases, the community determined the best path toward long-term sustainable solutions that work for their needs and goals, and this is how it should be. Time and again, the evidence shows that indigenous-led programs and policies lead to better outcomes.

On education, for generations indigenous peoples have been forced to conform to western colonial metrics of success that don't reflect their own values. The Government of Canada indeed used education as a spearhead to suppress and control, with the ultimate goal of “killing the Indian in the child”. It's imperative that we do this hard work to unravel and address the cumulative impacts of these colonial policies.

When we invest in education, we invest in the future. Following the lead of indigenous partners, we're working hard to close gaps in education so that every child has a safe and healthy learning environment, from the school facility all the way to the curriculum. Schools usually end up becoming multi-purpose community facilities for events and cultural gatherings as well. When I visited Kasabonika in October, the celebrations for their connection to the Ontario power grid happened in their school gym.

Since 2016, we've funded projects to build and renovate over 200 schools that serve 35,000 students from coast to coast to coast. Right now, 24 new schools are under construction, with 50 more under renovation. I can tell you that when I visit communities, the new schools and the renovated schools are a great source of pride for community leaders and for families because they are reminders of the investment in youth and the immense potential they represent.

Students learn better when they see themselves in their learning. They're more likely to stay engaged and to continue their education. To meet the specific needs of the first nations students and communities, we're updating the education policies and funding approaches in partnership with the first nations.

For example, we were the first government in the history of this country to implement funding parity so that kids would get the same resources on and off reserve. We've also signed agreements with communities to put leadership of education systems where it should always have been—with first nations. This work has led to sustainable, predictable education funding for first nations communities, the required resources to develop and maintain culturally appropriate education systems, and a sense of being in control over the education of their students.

These transformative policies have required us to rethink how we measure success. Indigenous Services Canada introduced new metrics this year that reflect calls by first nations to move away from western expectations of on-time graduation and toward first nations-defined student outcomes.

There's still a long way to go to address the inequalities facing first nations communities.

After a decade of Conservative cuts and after centuries of paternalism and neglect, we're closer than ever to a future of self-determination for indigenous peoples. I hope that goal is something we can all agree on.

Thank you. I'm happy to take your questions now.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Thank you, Minister Hadju.

Before we start the first round of questions, I want to know whether the committee would mind if I ask a few questions, given that I don't usually sit as chair.

I prepared some questions. I want to know whether you mind if I take the floor when it's my turn, as planned, while obviously abiding by everyone's speaking time.

I see that everyone agrees. Thank you.

Mr. Vidal, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to you and your team, Minister, for being here.

Minister, I'm hoping that, with the late start, we can ask you to maybe hang in there for a bit so we can get in our full rounds of questions. If you're not able to do that, I know that there's some discussion going on, and I'd hope that you would accept an invite to come back and finish this conversation in a very short time frame in the future.

With that out there, I want to talk a bit about education results and, specifically, graduation rates for on-reserve students.

Minister, you appeared at INAN in March. We had a conversation about this. At that time, the department had not yet identified a target for first nation on-reserve graduation rates, even though the 2020-21 and 2021-22 departmental results reports had committed to setting that target by March 2022. That got changed to March 2023. We had a lengthy discussion about that. What was astonishing at the time was that neither you nor the deputy minister was aware of this commitment. In the official record of the meeting, there's an entry that says there's a voice at the back of the room that says, “It's in development now and will be published in the next departmental report.”

Has that target been developed and published?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I recall that conversation, MP Vidal.

What I would say, again, is that the target that has been developed has been done with indigenous peoples. I think, reflecting on the conversation at committee last time, what I will tell you is that working with first nations in a very intensive way in this role—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Minister, I'm sorry. I have very little time.

Has the target been developed? It's a simple question.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

The target has been developed, and it's been developed in partnership—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Thank you.

Can you tell me what that target is?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Ms. Wilson, go ahead.

[Gina Wilson, Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services]

It's on page 28 of our departmental results report. I can go through the target—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

In that target, it says “Maintain or increase results year over year starting with the 2022-23 established baseline”. Is that correct?

[Gina Wilson]

Yes, it is, along with many other targets.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Yes, but that target is established on that basis. Is that right?

Let me be clear here. For two years, we've been promised this target of setting graduation rates for on-reserve students, and what we've come up with after two years is to “maintain or increase results year over year, starting with the 2022-23 established baseline”, which was actually the interim target in the two departmental results reports prior to that.

After two years, what we've been able to accomplish is to actually take the interim targets and determine that they will be the final target. Is that correct?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That target is developed with first nations people.

Let me tell you what José-Tomás Arriola, the clinical supervisor at Kiuna College, said about targets:

...Kiuna College looks beyond numbers and statistics to measure success.... Our students tell us that after studying at Kiuna College they are better able to assert themselves, to ask for what they want and need. Sometimes a student's time at Kiuna College won't necessarily result in a diploma. Some students come to our institution to access services and figure out what they really want before they move on to other institutions.

The reason I read you that quote is that when individuals are coming oftentimes from so far behind, the measurements that western education systems have imposed are actually undermining the success of the students. That's why the target creation with first nations is so important, because that's exactly how we got here: a colonial system imposing western ideology on indigenous peoples, sometimes in ways that were harmful and oftentimes in ways that were extremely underfunded, including under the previous government, actually did more damage than good, and so—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Minister, I'm sorry to interrupt—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—I'm very proud of the work the department has done to listen to first nations people on how to do this properly, respectfully and in a way that lifts people up.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

We're talking about graduation rates, not college entrance and whatever. We're talking about graduation rates.

The reality is that graduation rates, under this department, have declined from 41% in 2017-18 to 34% in 2021-22, and the target that has been set going forward is 26%. Then the measure of success is going to be that we maintain 26%, or maybe we'd get to 26.2% or something, because that would be an increase. That's going to be the measure of success. We've set no targets in terms of where we go with this measurement. It's a critical measurement in erasing the socio-economic gaps for first nations.

I'm astounded that after two years we haven't been able to set a target. I get the decline. The difference is because we've switched to the cohort method. I understand that. We weren't measuring that method properly in the past, so do we have the history? Your report talks about needing baseline data to set the target. What is the history? You're not reporting that history in your departmental results report. Do we know, based on the new cohort methodology, whether 26% is higher or lower than it was in prior years?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

What I would say is that I would go back to the statements of first nations people, because again, and with due respect, this government believes that we don't do things to first nations, as has been done through many iterations of the federal government, but rather we do things with first nations, and we do things with first nations in a spirit of respect.

I will say that StatsCan is showing success, actually, in this model, so in 2016—

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

Minister, I'm sorry. I'm not going to accept the StatsCan argument, because the StatsCan argument isn't measuring on-reserve students. Your own departmental results—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Then maybe you will accept, MP Vidal, the statement of Denis Gros-Louis, the director general of the First Nations Education Council, who said:

It's a source of pride, and it leads young people to grow alongside their cousins from other first nations. All the culturally appropriate expertise we've developed over time has made it possible for us to provide that environment. We're one of the only CEGEPs that can claim they have a graduation rate of around 92%. That's really good when you consider where our young people come from.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Thank you, Minister Hajdu.

[Gary Vidal, Conservative, Desnethé—Missinippi—Churchill River, SK]

However, in fairness, your departmental results show a declining result.

[The Vice-Chair, Bloc, Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné]

Mr. Vidal, it's Ms. Bradford's turn.

Ms. Bradford, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Valerie Bradford, Liberal, Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Minister Hajdu, for being here and bringing your cast of thousands. We really appreciate it. We've been anticipating your testimony.

I'm going to direct my questions to the area of water advisories. In your opening remarks, you mentioned that the challenges each community faces are unique. Can you give us a few more examples? You talked about how in Thames they came up with two different solutions. Are there any more examples of some of the different challenges the different communities deal with?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I will turn to officials in one minute, but it's an excellent question. I think it reflects the different realities across the country from a geography perspective, a capacity perspective, a size perspective and just the proximity—or not—to closer communities.

Maybe I can turn to officials to speak on a more granular level about some of those challenges.