Evidence of meeting #89 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was work.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karen Hogan  Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General
Christiane Fox  Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Marie-Josée Dorion  Acting Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Service Delivery, Department of Citizenship and Immigration
Carol McCalla  Principal, Office of the Auditor General

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

Thanks to the member for her question.

First, it's important to note that the department is on track to implement our annual immigration levels plan. We met our objective last year, and we're sure we can reach our target of 465,000 arrivals this year. Results show that the department has been able to meet the objectives set in its annual immigration levels plan for welcoming permanent residents.

However, we always have to strike a balance among economic immigration, family reunification and humanitarian goals, while also taking into account global circumstances and their impact on Canada. However, the funding allocated to us under the immigration levels plan tabled in the House is designed to help us meet our goals for welcoming permanent residents.

Where the pressure is on is in temporary immigration because it has no limits. We're seeing a sharp increase in that area that at times has an impact on the processing of permanent residence applications. However, we've still met our objectives.

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

I understand what you're saying about permanent residence applications, but you just said something very important. You said you're seeing pressure from temporary immigration. Let's talk about what's happening now. The closure of Roxham Road was supposed to help us more effectively control the inflow of people wanting to enter the country on humanitarian grounds. However, what we saw was that visitor visas were being issued far too readily and that just as many people as previously were ultimately seeking asylum in Canada.

What you're saying is that this is still putting pressure on the system. Did you tell the minister that was slowing down the processing of applications from people already in the country and seeking permanent residence?

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

It's important to note that approximately 30% of people who are granted permanent residence are already temporary residents in Canada. That pressure doesn't always come from new cases.

With regard to the pressure that temporary immigration puts on the system, the number of students, temporary foreign workers and asylum-seekers arriving in Canada is indeed rising sharply, and we have to use the tools we have to welcome those people.

The situation regarding asylum-seekers in particular isn't specific to Canada. There are 110 million displaced persons around the world. The Americans are seeing 2.2 million people crossing their southwestern border—

11:25 a.m.

Bloc

Nathalie Sinclair-Desgagné Bloc Terrebonne, QC

We aren't discussing the fact that there are migratory flows in the world. That's not the problem. The problem is that we aren't processing applications on time here.

If, on the one hand, we shut down Roxham Road and, on the other, issue visitor visas to people who will undoubtedly claim asylum upon arrival in Canada, we're letting people come into our country and stay here for the four years it takes to process their applications. More particularly, it slows down the processing of applications from people who are already in the country.

So there's a global problem in managing the number of people who enter the country and, especially, how those people are processed.

11:25 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

Asylum applications are in a way processed separately from the immigration system. As a result, it would be hard to determine whether the arrival of asylum seekers has an impact on the way we manage permanent residence in Canada. Various mechanisms are in place to process those applications.

What I'm telling you is that we receive annual funding to process permanent residence applications and that we have met our goals under the immigration levels plan.

11:30 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Thank you very much.

Mr. Desjarlais, you have the floor for six minutes.

11:30 a.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being present for this important report, especially the Auditor General.

Oftentimes when I deal with work related to Immigration, Refugees and Canadian Citizenship, similar to the situation with Indigenous Services Canada and Crown-Indigenous Relations, it's categorized with disappointment, anger and frustration.

This department in particular is famous across the country—particularly to those who need the service most—for being a ministry of delay, a ministry of mismanagement and a ministry of systemic racism.

You failed to make mention of what was a very important call and remarks by the Auditor General this morning. It was related to systemic racism in the service and ways that the anti-racism strategy can be implemented in a way that's concrete but also garners trust. It is a tremendous fact that this ministry continues to harm those persons in my community and across the country.

It's no secret that throughout this very difficult time, especially during the pandemic, there were real people who had to actually pick up these files. In the absence of IRCC doing that work, we had real people who had to do this work. They had to take phone calls from people. They had to listen to them in their time of need. They're a secret public service that no one ever talks about.

Those are the people like Kristina and the people like Elias, who's from my office here. He came from Edmonton because of this important work. He deals with hundreds of these folks. A former refugee himself, he knows the system and he knows how painful the system is. He knows how violent the system can be and how much change is truly required.

To make the commitments made in our treaties between where I'm from in Treaty No. 6.... This is a matter of treaty implementation. When we agreed that Canada would have jurisdiction over settlement, we agreed that they wouldn't be doing the kinds of settlement processes that they are today, which leave families worse off at times than when they came and leave them in limbo, wondering where their children are going to be.

Colleagues, these are families. They are real people. It's really difficult for me to try to humanize these systems at times, because we talk about people as if they're numbers or people in a queue or people in a line. These are real families. These are kids by themselves. Elias and I dealt with a case in my office of a 12-year-old girl who was overseas by herself.

This is unacceptable, simply unacceptable, especially given the fact that we have a government that's committed to an anti-racist strategy that in itself has not committed to understanding how that can be implicated in their own systems.

My question will be specifically on what the Auditor General has mentioned in her remarks. She said,

The department committed to addressing systemic barriers to applications under its Anti-Racism Strategy. However, it had yet to take any steps to collect demographic information about applicants and monitor and correct disparities in processing applications. This is critical to identifying and removing systemic barriers across government programs.

Deputy minister, you've served this government for a long time. Your service to this government far predates, in some ways, the anti-racist strategy.

How do you find yourself, as a deputy minister for many departments, with the reality that the anti-racist strategy exists and you see a report like this that suggests these barriers still exist? What are your words to those families who have had to endure these barriers and who have suffered from these barriers? What is your commitment to actually addressing the systemic barriers in a real way that demonstrates you understand what racism is? Trust has been lost, and now the work of rebuilding that trust to get to where we need to be is far harder.

What is your commitment to those people when they find themselves in applications...particularly the sub-Saharan office, where they find barriers like this very consistently? What are your words for those families who are in my office, and offices across the country, who continue waiting and are told to have trust in the system that our Auditor General has found to be non-compliant with our anti-racist strategy?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

I think I would answer that in three or four parts.

On the first part, I would say that I take pride in seeing what IRCC staff do every single day to support people. I think it is important for the committee to know that we have staff who—

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

I also agree about those members.

Deputy Minister, this is about you. I know you're trying to evade the question—

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

I'm not evading the question, but I think it's important when—

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

—and I want to be very specific in that....

Madam Fox, it's your commitment, not your staff's commitment, not the good work of our public service staff who struggle with this file every single day. I've talked to your public servants. They're struggling with how difficult this work is.

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

They need to know that their deputy minister understands what they're going through—not by saying thank you, but by acknowledging that these systems are real, that racism is real, and that you understand that racism is real.

Do you understand that?

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

Yes, I do understand that, and—

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I want to interrupt for one second, Ms. Fox.

Just so you know, you have about 30 seconds. I would just flag that. It's your time. You can use it however you like. I just want you to know that if you do want an answer, you do need to allow some time—

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Thank you, Chair. There are other rounds as well.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

That said, you can probe as much as you like.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

Thank you.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

The floor is yours, Ms. Fox.

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

As deputy minister of IRCC, former deputy minister of ISC and mother of two girls, I am absolutely committed to anti-racism work. I empower my team to challenge ourselves on how the policies we develop have an impact on people. I look at specific case studies and I empower people to bring them to me—data around Nigerian students versus Indian students and looking at the policies and programs we have in place and how our decisions around Afghanistan and Ukraine have an impact on how we respond in other places in the world.

What would I say in terms of my own personal commitment? I not only encourage our conversations between employees; I also support the various networks that exist within my organization and empower them through decisions that I make to give them a voice at the highest table of our department.

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

But the Auditor General says you haven't made it. You haven't hit the point.

11:35 a.m.

Deputy Minister, Department of Citizenship and Immigration

Christiane Fox

Well, on the race-based—

11:35 a.m.

NDP

Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB

The facts of what you're saying are not real.

We'll follow up with this in another round.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I'll have to call it right there. Mr. Desjarlais will have another opportunity, and we'll hear from you at that point.

I will turn now to Mr. Kmiec for five minutes, please.

11:35 a.m.

Conservative

Tom Kmiec Conservative Calgary Shepard, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Fox, I want to go back to the question that Ms. Sinclair-Desgagné asked a little earlier.

What is the percentage of people whose temporary resident status in Canada has changed to permanent resident status?