Evidence of meeting #99 for Public Accounts in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Yes. It was the same group that had those people under contract who became responsible for the ArriveCAN app.
NDP
Blake Desjarlais NDP Edmonton Griesbach, AB
How long did these civil servants declare that they'd known these persons for? Do you know that?
NDP
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
I'm afraid you are out of time, but we will come back to you, Mr. Desjarlais.
Next we have Mr. Brock.
You have the floor for five minutes, please.
February 13th, 2024 / 4:10 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Ms. O'Gorman, although you have not been sworn or affirmed to tell the truth, there is a presumption that any witness who appears at committee will tell the truth. I'll state at the outset that I have heard your evidence on multiple occasions and you, ma'am, have a serious deficit when it comes to credibility and integrity.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Nothing he has said is out of bounds. You know that I watch for language. The member is pressing hard, as he has the right to do. You might not like it, but these are serious allegations, and we're not hearing a lot of answers today from CBSA. It seems that no one was in charge.
Mr. Brock, you have the floor. I stopped the clock. I'll resume it right now.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Ms. O'Gorman, in relation to a question put to you by my Liberal colleagues, you said that whoever picked GC Strategies is still an unknown entity and that, for well over a year, it has been just hanging in the air. I guess you forgot about ATIP request A-2022-27196, which asked for summary request records from November 1 to November 16 of notes, emails and texts sent or received by Erin O'Gorman, Ted Gallivan, Jonathan Moor and Kelly Belanger related to either the ArriveCAN app or their November 14, 2022 appearance at the government operations committee, including any discussions following the meeting.
Based on that response, you as president and vice-presidents Minh Doan and Kelly Belanger approved a briefing preparatory package that provides—wait for it—a direct response to the question of who chose GC Strategies for ArriveCAN. Lo and behold, in annex A of the ATIP as supplied by someone in your department, presumably you, in answer to the question “Who made the decision to contract GC Strategies?”, it states:
My office made the decision to pursue the contract with GC Strategies.
The two proposals for the work were presented to the CIO and President, and the decision was made to proceed with GC Strategies as their proposal and approach aligned best to what the CBSA was looking for, particularly rapid staff augmentation.
The Deloitte proposal was a managed service using their Cloud instance. This would have involved additional risk, and did not align with our direction to build Cloud/Mobile competencies within the Agency.
Why are you lying to committee?
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Wait just one second. Mr. Brock, you were very good there. You and others know that I do not condone that language, nor do we condone that in the House. I would ask all members to direct tough questions to the witnesses and use parliamentary language, even though not every person at this table is a parliamentarian.
Ms. O'Gorman, you have the floor, and I apologize for that.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Thank you.
I would like to confirm that the allegations are not against me. This is not the first time that I've been accused of that. I have told the truth, and I continue to tell the truth.
I'm not sure what document you're referencing. I don't know that it was approved by me, and as for the reference to my office, I wasn't in the position when GC Strategies was—
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Then it was your predecessor, the former president, Mr. John Ossowski. You can't escape liability and responsibility, ma'am. This is a document that was supplied by the CBSA in relation to an ATIP.
Did you or anyone in your office share the results with the Auditor General as to who picked GC Strategies?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I would have to look at that document to understand what it is in reference to.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Perhaps you lost this document as well, just like the rest of the documents.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
We released it under ATIP, and I don't know who the “my” is that you're referencing there. I wasn't at CBSA—
President, Canada Border Services Agency
—when the decision was taken about GC Strategies.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
I'm going to move on, because the record is clear, the documentation is clear, so let's end this charade as to who picked GC Strategies. It was John Ossowski in the role of the former president and Minh Doan. It had nothing to do with Mr. MacDonald or Mr. Utano. I know you'd like to blame them because they cast blame on you, and we're pointing fingers, but this net of suspicion is much larger than the two individuals.
Liberal
Brenda Shanahan Liberal Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC
On a point of order, Chair, this is not a court of law. We are not investigating [Inaudible—Editor].
Conservative
The Chair Conservative John Williamson
Mrs. Shanahan, this is a parliamentary committee. Mr. Brock's questions are direct but certainly within the bounds of acceptable questions.
I'm going to turn things over to Mr. Brock.
I'm starting the clock again. You have about a minute and 15 seconds.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Your reports to the RCMP about potential criminality only relate to Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano. Is that correct?
President, Canada Border Services Agency
That's not correct, and it is not correct to say—