Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent—Akiawenhrahk, QC]

All right.

No matter which provinces you're talking about, how can you properly measure the day-to-day realities of rural and urban areas?

[Karen Hogan]

The agreements gave the provinces flexibility. In other words, the province or territory could decide where to create the new spaces. This was not a federal requirement.

In fact, each province was given flexibility. You would be better off asking the provinces. The important thing to know would be how they decide to create spaces in rural areas rather than in big cities, or vice versa.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Deltell.

Next up is Ms. Yip.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Thank you for doing this very important report. I'm glad all of you are here to answer our questions.

Ms. Hogan, what is meant by “inclusive spaces”?

[Karen Hogan]

We noticed there were different definitions, across the provinces and territories, of what would be an inclusive space. That's why it was difficult to sit back and globally say, across the country, whether inclusive spaces had been created. One requirement we expected to see was whether there were more inclusive places per capita based on the number of children who were there. That information wasn't gathered. As for whether or not those spaces were filled by the families they were actually intended for, again, that information was not gathered.

We saw this as an opportunity. There could have been a little more comparability across the country, if you wanted to report on this. It was one of the outcomes, so you should have set out some key measures in order to check whether you met that outcome.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Why is it important for the provinces and territories to ensure eventual equitable access to regulated child care spaces?

[Karen Hogan]

Usually, this means families that might have lower incomes or have children with special needs. At times, that means there are other expenses needed for child care—if you need extra help or different tools. These are all things the provinces need to figure out and define. If the goal is just simply creating more inclusive spaces and making sure they're used, the federal government has to figure out the metrics to measure that.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Thompson, what steps are being taken to ensure equitable access for diverse and vulnerable families, including those in rural and remote areas?

[Paul Thompson]

To start out with your earlier question on inclusive spaces, I would note that an important pillar in the legislation is laying out the objective of supporting inclusive spaces in the expansion and operation of an inclusive ELCC system. Whether that's for official language minority communities or indigenous communities, that's laid out as a legislative parameter.

There are also explicit objectives in our infrastructure agreements, in which funding is targeted to advance those objectives. In the recent extension agreements we negotiated with provinces for the next five years, there's increased emphasis on the reporting of inclusion metrics about meeting some of the needs of different communities.

Those are some of the measures we have in place.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

Mr. Thompson, could you comment on the data discrepancies, as the provinces started from different places?

[Paul Thompson]

As I said, an easier way to have made early progress was on the affordability part of this by providing greater subsidies. We saw early progress, and that progress was noted in the Auditor General's report.

The harder lift, if you will, was on the expansion of the child care spaces themselves. Some provinces were starting from a very low position. Others had a higher level of space creation already and perhaps had more momentum. Some provinces were starting from an earlier starting point and without a lot of momentum.

Quite a variety of circumstances were met in reaching the expansion programs. There was also a bit of a difference in the timing and signing on of the agreements. Ontario, for example, signed on quite later, so there were variations in the times at which different jurisdictions signed on.

Those are a few of the factors that influenced the rate of space creation in the different provinces.

[Jean Yip, Liberal, Scarborough—Agincourt, ON]

I'll continue with you, Mr. Thompson.

One risk identified says, “For most provincial and territorial governments, [ESDC] did not assess whether the increase of educators who fully met certification requirements”.... With the increased demand for educators and the fact that they need to be certified, how can we be sure they will meet the full requirements and that shortcuts won't be taken?

[Paul Thompson]

I have a few points on this.

As I said, it has been a collective objective of the federal, provincial and territorial governments to advance quality and to do so in the form of a workforce strategy. That has entailed issues like wage grids and benefits, where there's been some progress.

There's also been good discussion on competencies. This is more complicated, because each province—coming back to provincial jurisdiction—has jurisdiction over occupational competencies and requirements. We're not looking at a complete harmonization but more of a sharing of best practices on what constitutes good, quality standards. As a result of our process, there's much more dialogue between provinces and territories on issues of certification and best practices in that space.

I mentioned that we had a 30% increase in the workforce, so that is very encouraging.

One last thing I would note is that there are two other measures the federal government has put in place. We're in the process of rolling out $7.5 million through our sectoral workforce solutions program to support the development of competencies across the country and to work with partners on advancing labour market information, competency assessments and issues like that to facilitate the growth of the workforce.

I would also note that Canada student loan forgiveness, as per the last budget, is being expanded to include certified early childhood educators who move to remote areas. They can see a portion of their student loan forgiven. That's one of the expanded occupations to which that applies.

There are a few things the federal government is doing. This is also a deep area of provincial expertise, and we're trying to work a lot on dialogue and collaboration.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

That is your time, Ms. Yip.

We are beginning our third round and going back to Ms. Goodridge.

You have the floor for five minutes, please.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Thompson, one of the most flawed pieces in this system is that the federal government limited the number of spaces available to entrepreneurs. Specifically, in my home province of Alberta, it put in caps so that we couldn't expand child care.

Child care operators are primarily women, so women entrepreneurs have been left out and are sitting there struggling. This means that families don't have access to care, because in these programs, child care spaces exist, but families are not able to access the grant because of arbitrary caps put in place by the federal government.

Why was there such a focus on limiting access to these spectacular female entrepreneurs in expanding the businesses that already existed in many cases?

[Paul Thompson]

It was certainly the policy intent of this investment to support the expansion of primarily the not-for-profit sector. There was no prohibition on expanding the for-profit sector. It was—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

You guys did put caps in place, and very strict caps in—

[Paul Thompson]

The policy objective was that the not-for-profit sector should grow at a faster rate than the for-profit sector with the investment. Both could grow, but the ratio was expected to shift more heavily towards not-for-profit. That was the policy objective.

I would make two other observations. One, home operators were excluded from the definition of for-profit, so if you're operating out of your home, you're not considered for-profit—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

If you have a really small business, you're excluded, but if you have a 30-kid day care and have a few employees.... That's a problem, but let's have these giant not-for-profit day cares in large centres, and that's A-okay.

The part that really hits me hard, as I live in a rural community and represent a rural riding, is that we're not talking about large centres, by and large. We're talking about small centres. Those small centres are generally served by owner-operators, and your guys' systems completely left those out. That, to me, is a huge issue.

There's another piece I want to hit on. I'm incredibly proud to represent 4 Wing Cold Lake and the amazing men and women who serve in the Canadian Armed Forces there. The child care deals, as they are currently written, do not meet the flexibility requirements of the parents who have children and are serving our country, serving our national security needs. They don't typically work Monday to Friday, nine to five, and they often need outside care. These deals have left these families in Cold Lake completely out in the cold.

What is your government doing to make sure that families who are serving our country are actually able to get the flexible care they desperately need?

[Paul Thompson]

I have a few points on that.

First of all, as I said, there's no prohibition on for-profit expansion. It can be done. There's nothing to stop provinces from making additional—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

That's not accurate, because in my province of Alberta, they are actually limited.

[Paul Thompson]

There's a ratio.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Yes, there's a ratio, so you have limited the number of spaces that can be created because you guys have set an arbitrary number, not understanding the reality on the ground in Alberta.

[Paul Thompson]

That ratio only applies to the federal investment. As I mentioned, provinces have invested quite significantly in this as well.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I'm very proud of my province of Alberta for stepping up when the federal government decided to set arbitrary limits.