Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 27th, 2025

[Paul Thompson]

There's latitude for provinces to make that investment, and they are making that investment.

The latitude for private operators also includes—and this is a consensus among provinces and territories—looking at the guardrails and making sure you have financial controls, which need to be a bit more robust in the case of private operators, and have quality assurances—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

That's really frustrating to the operators stuck in these systems. Inflation, which has been out of control, has hit them hard, and they are struggling to make ends meet.

You guys continue blaming these amazing female entrepreneurs, these owner operators. To me, that's absolutely not okay, and I will stand up against this every single day.

Ms. Hogan, could you perhaps explain to us how flexibility is being measured? Are they actually meeting the needs of the parents who need outside care? Your report very clearly states that there aren't guardrails in place to make sure that flexible care is being met.

[Karen Hogan]

Many of your questions point to policy choices, and as you know, those are not things that my office will comment on. We comment on the implementation of the policy choice that has been made.

When it comes to flexibility, again, I think it's an area where very few parameters were put out for the government to report back on flexibility. I think it was just given to the provinces with the message, “You understand your needs, and you set them.” There were certain criteria, as the deputy minister talked about, on increasing regulated spaces in the not-for-profit sector that were policy choices that had been made. The rest of the flexibility on where funding went specifically was left with the provinces.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I'm afraid that is your time.

Up next is Ms. Tesser Derksen for five minutes, please.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

Thanks so much, Mr. Chair, and thanks so much, witnesses, for coming in.

This topic speaks really personally to me. I have four children. They're young adults now, but for years, when I was going to school and after university when my husband was starting up a small business, child care caused us a lot of anxiety, a lot of sleepless nights. Having reliable, affordable, accessible child care is extremely important in my community and I'm sure in communities all across the country, so I appreciate the work you're doing in assessing how the government is delivering this program.

I want to start off by noting to the Auditor General that in the conclusion, your report basically finds that ESDC “fulfilled its responsibilities to support the quality, affordability, access, inclusion, and flexibility of early learning and child care across Canada”, which is good. Thank you for that. There are critiques, of course, and recommendations. They seem to really focus on the theme of the inability to assess the effectiveness of the program because of these data gaps that we keep bringing up in our questions.

I understand the jurisdictional realities. The program allows provinces and territories to allocate funds at their discretion. That's perfectly understandable. I'm noting, however, that it's resulting in some limited or inconsistent information being gathered, which is hindering our ability to assess whether this program is actually meeting its goals.

In paragraph 23, on page 12, the report notes, “The funding agreements required provincial and territorial governments to report annually, if able, on several elements, including information about unmet demand.” “If able” is a rather powerful qualifier, so I'm wondering if you could provide some comment on what the rationale was for including that type of discretion in the agreement.

[Karen Hogan]

I believe that question would be best asked of the deputy minister, but listening to his previous responses, I think it's about reflecting that provinces all started in very different places. Some had very robust systems and some didn't. Some did not even have a global picture in the province of regulated spaces. Each organization would have that information.

I'm seeing Deputy Minister Thompson nodding his head in agreement with me.

[Paul Thompson]

I would just add that, again, provinces were coming at this from different starting points and with different data systems. I would say the scale of provincial operations is also an issue. Ontario, for example, has a very large, complicated system, much larger than those in other jurisdictions. Thus, the ability to collect data varied widely across provinces and territories, and very few had a centralized waiting list capability to know how many waiting lists an individual parent might be on. The actual number of parents not able to access child care is a data point that we wish we had more insights into, but that has not been available in most cases.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

Building off that point, is there a potential to amend these types of agreements or, if we do extending agreements, to build in that kind of specificity so we can be more customized when we're dealing with specific provinces based on their ability to collect this data, making sure they're collecting the data to the best of their ability?

[Paul Thompson]

Yes, there are indeed opportunities to do that. I mentioned that we have a very active federal-provincial working group looking at different ways of collecting the data.

Coming back to the point made earlier about sharing best practices, this is an area where some provinces and territories have more innovative ways of doing this. We are seeing dialogue and interest in sharing some of the capabilities that might exist. They might even just replicate a system and transport it to another area. That's an area of promise.

I would say that in our extension agreements, we have a renewed and bolstered commitment to working together on better reporting as well. It's reflected in legislation and in new agreements. I certainly see a will among provinces to work together on improving it.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

That's great.

Following along that theme, what types of responses have we been getting from provinces in general about the program, about the effectiveness of it or the ease of the implementation of program requirements? Have we received feedback from provinces individually?

[Paul Thompson]

We work very regularly with them. I certainly meet with my deputy minister counterparts at least three times a year. I have a meeting with them in a month's time.

There's regular opportunity for dialogue. Some of this relates to the status of agreements and funding, but a lot of it relates to dialogue that wasn't happening previously on how we can operate collectively a better child care system. It's basically a forum to share some of these practices and build a system together that operates out of a federal framework with funding but allows latitude for provinces to meet some of their specific needs on the ground.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

Generally, it's well received by the provinces. They're eager to continue and to build the programs, you're saying.

[Paul Thompson]

They're all enthusiastic participants. As you said, three provinces are in the process of finalizing extension agreements, so I take it that all the others that have signed on are enthusiastic about continuing the work together. We're very close to having a renewed commitment as well with the remaining three provinces. That's a pretty good indicator of their interest in continuing with the program.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

That's good to hear. In—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Can you make it quick? You're over your time, but you're on a roll. If you have a short wrap-up, please go ahead.

[Kristina Tesser Derksen, Liberal, Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON]

Okay.

In some ways, the program has been a victim of its own success, because there is some unmet demand. I was reading an article just the other day about the province of Manitoba. There were some criticisms about the ability to staff and to roll out more spaces.

I'm just adding that to my comments. You don't have to respond.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Do you want to give a response to that? You don't have to.

[Paul Thompson]

I think I've answered it.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two and a half minutes. You will then have one more turn to speak.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I like feeling the passion of the witnesses. We can see that children's education is very important to them.

Ms. Hogan, in your report, you highlight the fact that there are not enough obligations or funding regarding first nations.

Can you tell us more about the work you've done in this area and its impact on communities?

Is there data? How does it work?

[Karen Hogan]

This part of the report was a little more difficult. We only included Employment and Social Development Canada, but existing programs were managed by other departments. Funding was included in this program to improve spaces and services for indigenous communities. Employment and Social Development Canada is the department that was responsible for managing it horizontally, so we expected that department to have much more information than what was provided.

There was also a great deal of collaboration with indigenous communities to establish measures and targets. We received the same feedback, and the recommendation was the same in the rest of the country. Due to the lack of information, we were unable to demonstrate whether there had been any improvements.

Let me give you an example. Funds have been earmarked for structural improvements. However, the federal government did not collect information on how many buildings had actually been improved or enlarged. The lack of information does not allow us to demonstrate the value added with the funds granted.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

In 2021, Quebec launched a call for projects to allocate 1,000 new day care spaces. Adding these to the existing ones gives us a total of 4,500 available spaces in Quebec.

What happens in a context like that? Are there negotiations with first nations?

We know there's a certain amount of confusion in this area, and that means Quebec doesn't get its fair share.

Does Quebec receive its fair share of programs reserved for first nations?

[Karen Hogan]

I hope Mr. Thompson can answer that question.

I can tell you that, for a decade, we have been working with indigenous communities and third parties to develop a performance measurement plan. This concerned money spent on indigenous communities.

Mr. Thompson, would you like to add anything to that?

[Paul Thompson]

Many indigenous communities rely on three existing programs, namely those of the Public Health Agency of Canada, Indigenous Services Canada and Employment and Social Development Canada.

The new investments are designed to ensure the continuation of those important programs for indigenous communities. We need new ways of offering programs developed in conjunction with our partners. This is a continuation of those three programs, but with an increase in investment. There are 60 consultation tables across the country. They are discussing new ways of setting priorities and the performance framework.

Our work has progressed a long way. It's been a little slower than expected, but we have almost completed the development of a performance framework for new investments in indigenous communities. We obviously need the approval of indigenous communities and their leadership. However, we will soon be ready to present a new framework for this program.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lemire.

Mrs. Kusie, you have the floor for five minutes.