Evidence of meeting #27 for Public Accounts in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was debt.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Tom Osborne Liberal Cape Spear, NL
Okay.
Is there an anticipated timeline to be able to give us some indication as to what the administrative burden would be with the passage of this bill?
Director General, Legislative Policy Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Thank you for the question.
We have to wait for the bill to be passed and for the changes to be implemented before doing an assessment based on the bill.
Liberal
Tom Osborne Liberal Cape Spear, NL
Okay. I would be interested in having some understanding of the staffing requirements and the logistics in order for the agency, as well as government departments, to be able to meet the demands of the passage of this. Do we have any indication? I'm not looking for a specific number, but just in general terms. What does the burden...? Maybe I should change the wording, because I am generally supportive of the legislation. What does the requirement to maintain a registry look like?
Director General, Legislative Policy Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Thank you for the question.
It will certainly require resources, both human resources and system changes. We're talking about something that will have consequences and that will be substantial.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Jean Yip
Thank you.
Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
In its latest report, Employment and Social Development Canada states that it has recovered $2.7 billion of the $3.2 billion overpaid to Canadian taxpayers. At the same time, Export Development Canada, which managed the Canada emergency business account, declined to name the recipient companies that were ineligible. The Auditor General estimates that $3.5 billion was paid to ineligible companies.
In your opinion, does this underscore the importance of ensuring that all Canadians are equal before the law?
Director General, Legislative Policy Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Thank you for your question.
You're talking about a case involving another federal entity. There's no representative from that group here. So we can't give you any information on that case.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
You're right, except that this nevertheless raises a question about the CRA's ability to prosecute taxpayers. Is it really doing that for businesses? We feel that there is a double standard.
If all the details remain anonymous because the information isn't made public, what guarantee do we have that the work is really being done to ensure that everyone is equal before the law and that the people at the CRA are doing everything they can to recover the money advanced to these companies?
Obviously, we're talking about very large amounts of money.
Director General, Legislative Policy Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Thank you for your question.
I understand the importance of the question, but we're not authorized to comment.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Okay.
I would now like to understand certain things.
During the pandemic, loans were granted to businesses. These loans could be repayable if certain conditions were met.
In the public accounts, are these amounts considered writeoffs, forgiveness, remissions or waivers?
Senior Director, Public Accounts and Advisory Services, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question.
I don't have a list of the waivers or remissions or forgivenesses for those individual organizations.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Thank you.
I have only 15 seconds left, so I thank the witnesses.
I think they answered as honestly and transparently as they could. That confirms the importance of this bill in terms of giving them more resources so that they can do their work with a high degree of professionalism.
Thank you very much.
Conservative
Ned Kuruc Conservative Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you all for being here today. I will cede about a minute of my time to my colleague MP Chambers.
At the beginning here, there were some questions that.... You couldn't disclose.... I fully respect that. You have to do what you have to do. However, I will ask each of the departments whether or not, in your expert opinion, a debt forgiveness public registry of these corporations would create more transparency for the Canadian public, if this bill went through.
We can start with you, Mr. Daly, if that's okay.
Senior Director, Public Accounts and Advisory Services, Treasury Board Secretariat
I would say that, essentially, the transparency for debt deletion is set out in the Financial Administration Act. As it's currently set, this information is included in the public accounts at a summarized, but not detailed, level, as the public accounts currently consist of over three volumes and about 1,000 pages of data. Essentially, at this point in time, volume 3, which is unaudited data, does not contain that aggregate level of data.
Speaking specifically to transparency, I don't think I can comment further on a bill that has not yet been put into law.
Conservative
Ned Kuruc Conservative Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Okay. I respect that, sir. I was asking more for your opinion, but I respect that.
Could someone from the CRA answer?
Director General, Legislative Policy Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Thank you for the question.
For further clarification, I would say that a distinction must be made between bad debts and forgiveness or remissions.
When the Minister of Finance and National Revenue grants a debt remission, there is already a lot of transparency. It's a public process in which the Governor in Council makes an order. It's published in the Canada Gazette.
The minister can also decide to waive interest on penalties. In that case, it's noted in the taxpayer's file.
Conservative
Acting Director General, Legislation, Tax Policy Branch, Department of Finance
I think that information would be available, but I can provide technical answers only and not personal opinions.
Conservative
Ned Kuruc Conservative Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
That's fair enough, sir. Thank you.
I guess what I was trying to say was, in your opinion.... This bill would try to create more transparency for the Canadian public. I respect the way you have to answer, so I won't dig into that anymore.
Here is another question, though. What's the benefit of protecting the identities of these corporations? I'm going to play the devil's advocate. Clearly, you can't disclose a lot of stuff, but what would be the benefit of protecting some of these identities—or corporations, I should say; I don't want to reference people, as we're talking about corporations—when they are excused from paying multi-millions of dollars?
Could someone from CRA answer?
Director General, Legislative Policy Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Thank you for the question.
Tax debt is governed by an act of Parliament. Parliamentarians have passed an act that requires us to respect full confidentiality for every taxpayer. It's a conscious choice.
Conservative
Ned Kuruc Conservative Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Okay.
We talked about some of the processes of tax writeoffs. Very briefly, because it was in French, Mr. Norris, if you could.... What determines whether a debt could be collected or not?
Acting Director General, Collections and Verification Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
What determines whether it can be collected or not are the circumstances of the business—
Conservative