Public Accounts Committee on April 13th, 2026

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 30 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), the committee is meeting today to consider the report entitled “Housing Canadian Armed Forces Members”, taken from the fall 2025 reports of the Auditor General of Canada and referred to the committee on Tuesday, October 21, 2025.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses.

From the Office of the Auditor General, we have Karen Hogan—it's nice to see you—Auditor General of Canada, along with Stuart Smith, director.

From the Department of National Defence, we have Christiane Fox, deputy minister. It's nice to see you back at committee in a different role.

We also have Peter Hammerschmidt, assistant deputy minister of infrastructure and environment, and Lieutenant-General Erick Simoneau, chief of military personnel. It's nice to see you as well.

From the Canadian Forces Housing Agency, we have Paola Zurro, chief executive officer. It's nice to see you.

There will be some opening statements. Ms. Hogan, you'll kick us off for approximately five minutes, please.

[Karen Hogan, Auditor General of Canada, Office of the Auditor General]

Mr. Chair, thank you for giving us the opportunity to testify before the committee today to discuss our audit report titled “Housing Canadian Armed Forces Members”, which was tabled on October 21, 2025.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that this hearing is taking place on the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

Overall, National Defence did not manage living accommodations in a manner that would meet its operational needs and be responsive to the needs of Canadian Armed Forces members and their families. This is particularly important because the Canadian Armed Forces are planning to add additional members in the future. National Defence should have sufficient housing in appropriate locations to meet its operational needs and promote the morale, well-being and retention of members. National Defence did not have reliable data on furnished housing, also known as quarters. In particular, there was a lack of information on the number and location of beds intended for members in training, on short-term assignments, or in transit to other locations.

The audit team visited three bases and found that many quarters were in poor condition, with problems such as a lack of safe drinking water or working toilets. Quarters must meet minimum standards for size, amenities and physical condition. However, during our audit period, 32 out of the 35 buildings we examined needed at least one high-priority repair.

In addition, the Canadian Forces Housing Agency, which manages residential housing units, did not plan to build enough new housing units to fill existing gaps. On March 31, 2025, there were more than 3,700 Canadian Armed Forces members with outstanding applications for residential housing units. However, there were only 205 units available to be occupied. Plans to build new housing units were based on data from 2019, leaving a significant gap. Work being done to update the assessment of housing needs did not account for plans to expand the Canadian Armed Forces to their authorized full strength.

Canadian Armed Forces members can be required to move frequently. It's important for their morale and well-being that they can access affordable housing in good condition to meet their needs, as well as those of their families.

That concludes my opening remarks. We would be pleased to answer any questions committee members may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Ms. Hogan.

Ms. Fox, you have the floor for approximately five minutes.

[Christiane Fox, Deputy Minister, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Good morning.

Thank you for the opportunity to come and discuss the Office of the Auditor General's report on housing for Canadian Armed Forces members.

Before I begin, I want to start by acknowledging the report of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner. I take this matter very seriously. I respect the role of the commissioner and the office, and I need to focus on my role as a public service leader and my role at National Defence.

I'm joined by my colleagues to speak to the very important issue of military housing.

For CAF members, housing is more than a place to live. It is a fundamental part of their readiness. It provides our members with a place to rest and recharge so that they are prepared to carry out their duties.

It ensures that our military families—the partners and children of those who serve—are well taken care of. It also helps us attract and retain the skilled personnel we need to assert our sovereignty and defend our security.

Even in my short time at the Department of National Defence, I’ve learned a lot about the challenges we’ve faced providing suitable and affordable residential housing units, and the steps we’re taking to address these challenges. I welcome the OAG’s findings and recommendations on how we can build on these efforts.

The report in question, published in October 2025, examined how the Department of National Defence manages living accommodations to meet operational needs. That means ensuring we have the right number of housing units, with the right number of bedrooms, at the right locations so that members can access housing where they need it and when they need it. The report looked at residential housing units managed by the Canadian Forces Housing Agency and furnished quarters overseen by bases and wings. It also assessed whether National Defence is meeting its obligation to provide CAF members with housing that is affordable, suitable and adequate.

Ultimately, the OAG determined that there were several key areas of concern regarding how National Defence manages and maintains military housing and how we collect data around housing requirements, as well as the number of units available for CAF members and their families.

To begin addressing these issues, they provided recommendations across several key areas, including defining how quarters will be allocated to support CAF operational requirements; ensuring that inspections, maintenance and repairs are completed; and regularly assessing CAF members' residential housing needs. This includes updating cost estimates, planning to meet any shortfalls and implementing those plans in a timely manner, as well as accounting for the growing number of CAF personnel and changes in their geographic distribution.

The minister issued a written statement on October 21, 2025, accepting the report’s recommendations and reiterating the department’s commitment to making real, measurable improvements for CAF members and their families.

In response to these recommendations, we are developing a comprehensive framework to define the role of quarters in meeting CAF operational needs. This is going to set a standard process for assigning quarters, supported by better data and a tracking system. In this way, we're placing members where they need to be based on operational requirements. The department will also ensure that quarters are regularly inspected through formal reviews every three to five years and through local routine checks.

We’re also in the process of implementing the living accommodation optimization program. As part of this program, we’ll develop plans for scheduled inspections and routine maintenance. This will help ensure current and future accommodations are suitable and have longevity. The Canadian Forces Housing Agency also developed the residential housing response plan, which identifies portfolio shortfalls by location and updates cost estimates to ensure our housing portfolio evolves and adapts.

We're also taking broader steps to ensure that CAF members and their families have access to suitable housing. Our defence policy commits $1.4 billion over 20 years to modernize housing of CAF members. This builds on $490 million over 10 years.

In February, the minister also announced that the second phase of Canada's national housing construction program is under way.

Together, phases 1 and 2 will add up to 7,500 new residential housing units in 25 locations across the country. We have made progress, but we know there is more work to do. We will continue taking action to ensure that members and their families have access to housing.

We appreciate the Auditor General's oversight and input to help us improve and address challenges to housing for CAF members.

I look forward to taking your questions. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you very much.

We'll begin with our first round, which consists of three members with six minutes each.

Mr. Bezan, you'll lead us off, please.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is indeed a pleasure to join the public accounts committee today to deal with the Canadian Forces housing issue.

Deputy Minister Fox, I wasn't going to bring up the Ethics Commissioner's report, but since you did, can you assure Parliament and Canadians that you won't be using your office as a public office holder to further the interests of private individuals?

[Christiane Fox]

I can assure the committee that I will continue to demonstrate a commitment to public service, building on the strong commitment I've had over my career, and that, yes, I will take my responsibilities seriously, as I always have.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

How many housing units are we short today? What's the wait-list?

[Paola Zurro, Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Forces Housing Agency]

The gap—reassessed in October, based on our latest requirement—is between 7,000 and 10,000 housing supports. We base our housing response plan on this gap. We're looking at leaning forward and meeting the 10,000 units, the higher spectrum of the range.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

I know that when we did the study on military housing at the national defence committee that was reported in October 2024, at the time, the gap was around 6,700. The situation continues to get worse. We're not building fast enough. Are we also seeing a large portion of the current housing stock being retired or taken out of availability for our troops?

[Christiane Fox]

First, I would say that the construction program will deliver 7,500 residential housing units, but given the urgency and given the need, we are also expanding our housing supply with flexible housing options. We've bought 37 units in Esquimalt, for instance. We've bought units in Dartmouth.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Let's talk about those. You've gone into local markets that have already been short of housing, if you want to talk about Dartmouth and Halifax. We've had stories of military members who have been living rough, who have been couch surfing or who have been living out of their cars. There's even one story of a guy living in one of the tent cities. In Esquimalt, I talked to military members who are working two jobs just so they can afford a one-bedroom apartment and raise a family of three.

You guys go into the market and buy up existing housing stock that could have gone to help alleviate the local situation. It's good for the forces members, but it actually exacerbates the problem on the ground in those housing markets.

When are we going to get the new builds?

[Christiane Fox]

We are expediting new builds, but we're also working in lockstep with Build Canada Homes, because we need to have a strategy for the country when it comes to housing. It is about how the military can step up and accelerate the builds, how we can offer appropriate housing for military members, but also how this fits into the broader objectives of building more housing across the country.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

We have to do both. We have to alleviate the housing crisis. This means we have to build new for our forces so that we aren't taking away from the civilian side.

Auditor General Hogan, you talked about the conditions of the housing, with toilets that don't work and with no running water. Some homes don't even have proper insulation. As you characterized it, none of us would ever want to live there.

I was just in Gander at 9 Wing. We heard that there were not enough units for single members. They were occupying two- and three-bedroom homes and taking away opportunities for families who were being transferred there. The barracks were in poor condition. There wasn't potable water on the base where the barracks were located. They're hauling in water.

What else did you find out in your study to demonstrate that this hasn't been taken care of over the last decade?

[Karen Hogan]

I want to clarify that we went and looked at quarters, which are on the bases, and not the residential housing units. It's a slight difference, for those who might not know. Obviously, the experts are here, but I would tell you in layman's terms that a housing unit is unfurnished whereas quarters are furnished and are usually meant for temporary, short-term stays.

We went to three bases across the country, with one in B.C., one in New Brunswick and one in Ontario. In the buildings, we found that about 32 out of 35 of them needed one major repair at a minimum. It could have included damage to exterior walls or a lack of safe drinking water, as you previously mentioned, functioning toilets or sanitary systems. They were the kinds of conditions that I know none of us sitting around this table would want to live in and that we shouldn't expect our Canadian Armed Forces to.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Would your office say that those units on base would have been condemned if they weren't on base?

[Karen Hogan]

I'm not an expert in housing. I'm not sure exactly what it takes to condemn a unit. Some of the witnesses from the Canadian Forces Housing Agency may be in a better position to answer that. I know that I would want my family to have safe drinking water and a functioning toilet. I would want to be sure the building was structurally sound. That's why some of our findings were around the need to regularly inspect both residential units and quarters. It's essential. It's to help you identify preventative maintenance so that you don't get to a place in which it's a major repair.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Do you at the Canadian Forces Housing Agency have your own guideline for assessment of the quality of the housing stock you manage? When we did our report at the national defence committee, we recommended that this be standardized with civilian standards. We know that the regulations you operate under are more subjective rather than quantitative as to the quality of the housing available to our members of the Canadian Armed Forces. Has this changed at all, or are you still making your own decisions on what's good and what's not?

[Paola Zurro]

The health and safety standards the Canadian Forces Housing Agency follows are based on the national building code and all appropriate standards. I can assure you that all occupied residential housing units meet all the health and safety standards.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

However, the national code is substandard for most provincial codes.

[Paola Zurro]

We are using the latest national building code, and provincial codes are usually based on the national building code.

[James Bezan, Conservative, Selkirk—Interlake—Eastman, MB]

Or—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Williamson]

Thank you, Mr. Bezan. That is your time, I'm afraid. We'll come back to you later, I'm sure.

Mr. Osborne, you have the floor for six minutes, please.

[Tom Osborne, Liberal, Cape Spear, NL]

Thank you.

Could someone from National Defence elaborate on the number of units that you have newly acquired, either owned and operated by National Defence or supplied by other sources—contractors or developers, for example—and that you are planning to put into inventory? What are the numbers and the timelines for these units?

[Paola Zurro]

Since the announcement of budget 2024, the Canadian Forces Housing Agency has been working to make rapid progress with the urgency the times require.

Last year, we launched phase one of the national housing construction program, as the deputy minister mentioned, with the aim of building 668 units. We are always looking at opportunities to expand. Now our phase one is delivering 800 units.

In February, our minister announced phase two, which will be looking at building up to a total of 7,500, but we are not stopping there. We are also looking at other ways to include more units.

In 2024, we agreed with Public Services and Procurement Canada to transfer 189 units in Yellowknife. We are rapidly increasing and expanding our portfolio through this agreement in Yellowknife to support the north.

We also added more units through the acquisition programs, as the deputy minister mentioned, in Halifax, in Comox and in Esquimalt. We are looking at adding more and more units through the national acquisition program as they become available.

We are also looking at leases. We are in the midst of concluding leases in Yellowknife to add more units there. We are updating our leases in Masset, and we are looking at launching a national leasing program.

We are looking at piloting as well. In Trenton, we just did a pilot with landlords in which Canadian Armed Forces members have the first right of refusal in units that are vacant in the market. We are making rapid progress.

So far in the past two fiscal years, with just the alternative solutions, we have finished the year with almost 200 units. This is in addition to our construction program, which aims to build 7,500 units.