Evidence of meeting #35 for Public Accounts in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was amendment.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Very specifically, Mr. Chair, my understanding is that a comprehensive proposal was going to be sent. If we go through it point by point, obviously, concessions may be made. I feel that this is what has happened a lot, and that I have made a lot of concessions. I just don't feel like getting to the end of the process and, at the end of the day, I'm the only one who has made concessions again. I think people actually want to work with this motion as a whole.

Would it be possible to see the proposed text in its entirety to see if we can agree on it?

If it quickly becomes clear that we can't, we can come back to it during clause by clause as we debate each amendment.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

No, we can't do that at this point. Ms. Tesser Derksen can send you suggestions if she wants.

To stop now, we would need unanimous consent. I think we should finish the debate on this amendment and then go back to the motion. Then, after that, Ms. Tesser Derksen will be able to make suggestions or propose amendments.

If no one debates any more, then we can vote on this and carry on.

Mr. McKinnon, you were down as well, but I saw Mr. Osborne moving.

4 p.m.

Liberal

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

I was going to say to Mr. Lemire that, yes, there have been discussions and there are all kinds of ideas and suggestions. It's a point of form that when we are in an amendment, we need to finish the amendment and then we can move on to bigger and better things.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Just to tee things up, could I ask if your text is translated?

A voice

Yes.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

That's perfect. Thank you.

Mr. Osborne, it is your amendment. Do you want to say anything on it?

Tom Osborne Liberal Cape Spear, NL

I was simply going to call for a vote on the amendment that I made. Once we get that done, we can move on to this.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Exactly.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

At this point, I just want to say that I have no idea what's going to be sent to us.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Neither do I.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

I haven't seen anything, so I can't make any promises.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I understand.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

However, I'm very curious, and I'm looking forward to that more comprehensive proposal. Obviously, I can express my opinion about the tenor of the negotiations that took place when it comes time to vote, but I'm not keen on voting on a single aspect rather than the overall picture.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I'm going to have the clerk do a roll call for this vote on the amendment to the motion, which strikes “within 30 days of the adoption of this motion” and replaces it with “before the start of the fall session”.

(Amendment agreed to: yeas 8; nays 0)

We're now at the motion as twice amended—unanimously, both times.

Shall we hear from Ms. Tesser Derksen on her amendment? Should I call it a mega amendment?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Kristina Tesser Derksen Liberal Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON

It's a significant amendment, Mr. Chair.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Could your team send it to the clerk while you're talking?

4 p.m.

Liberal

Kristina Tesser Derksen Liberal Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON

Yes, we'll get it sent out.

I'll read it in French, so bear with me:

That, the Standing Committee on Public Accounts request that the Auditor General undertake a report on the Benefit Delivery Modernization system and the progress done to modernize the legacy system; and, the committee initiate a study into Benefits Delivery Modernization, and invite senior officials from Employment and Social Development Canada, Services and Procurement Canada, Shared Services Canada and the Treasury Board, including Cliff Groen, Associate Deputy Minister and Business Lead, Benefits Delivery Modernization.

You should see that in your inboxes shortly.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

We've not actually received it yet.

Kristina Tesser Derksen Liberal Milton East—Halton Hills South, ON

Would it make sense to suspend to give people a chance to read that over?

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

I would like to receive it first.

Jean Yip Liberal Scarborough—Agincourt, ON

It's coming.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Go ahead, Mr. Lemire.

Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This motion is in line with what was sent a few hours ago. In my opinion, one of the most important elements is missing, and that is transparency around accessing documents. If we want a study like this to go smoothly, I think we need access to documents. From what I understand, the issue for the government is what's in those documents.

Obviously, it's easy for me to ask what the government has to hide in those documents. We all remember the metaphors from the last meeting about the original motion, about how Bloc Québécois members were asking for truckloads of documents. When I asked what the largest items were, they said correspondence and emails, so I agreed to remove those from the original motion.

They're still telling me that there are way too many documents, so I'm starting to think the government is bluffing because it seems to me that we respond to their requests, but it's never enough. So again I have to ask: What does the government have to hide? I was prepared to remove something that it seemed to think was critical: PMO communications. I can understand that from a political standpoint.

About that, thanks to a reporter from a tech media outlet, we know that a message was sent from the President of the Treasury Board to the Prime Minister's Office in May 2022. The message was about Cúram missteps and what actions needed to be taken. To my knowledge, the Prime Minister took no action. I believe this type of question is clearly in the public interest, especially since this kind of important information has been downplayed. We all know the cost overruns add up to $5 billion. It went from $1.7 billion to $6.6 billion.

How interesting that I'm now being lectured on partisanship in committees and how difficult it is for them to function properly, when there's evidence that there has been filibustering here in our committee, in the Standing Committee on Human Resources, Skills and Social Development and the Status of Persons with Disabilities, and in many other committees. The government itself has engaged in filibustering. We're all aware of the current context. The government bought itself a majority with floor crossers, and that majority will come into effect this evening.

I'm going to ask my question again. What does the government have to hide, apart from its lack of accountability to the voters who gave it a minority mandate precisely so that we can perform our oversight role?

To me, downplaying what's going on right now is very dangerous. One of my still-unanswered questions is this: What about the tens of thousands of seniors who are still waiting? That is the crux of this issue, the computer system's mistakes. Not only is it very expensive, but it is also glitchy. Where are we at with it? Have any departments hidden, erased or covered up any data? I'm starting to wonder.

Instead of blaming employees for these screw-ups, as certain members did in question period, we might ask whether the instructions were properly communicated to the employees. Was it done properly in both official languages?

These questions remain unanswered. I'll stop there so nobody accuses me of filibustering.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Williamson

Go ahead, Mr. McKinnon.

Ron McKinnon Liberal Coquitlam—Port Coquitlam, BC

Mr. Lemire is worried about what we are trying to hide. We're not trying to hide anything. We want to do a real study. We do studies in all of our committees all throughout Parliament. We do them all the time. We bring witnesses in. We ask them questions, and we get them to provide us information that they can offer. That's exactly what we want to do.

The notion of getting this massive dump of documents, even though we have agreed to narrow it down somewhat.... It's still a massive dump. To think that we're going to take this massive number of documents and suddenly discover magic solutions to this problem is not realistic.

From my perspective, we're trying to make this not into a backward study. We want to call the witnesses forward, drill down into the issues that were identified before, conceivably invite the Auditor General to do a further study to follow up, and absolutely find out what went wrong here.

I'm an IT guy from way back. I spent probably 30 or 40 years doing IT. Things happen when writing code. Things change. We're not going to get some magic document dump that's going to tell us what went wrong.

I think we have to look at the matter systemically, and we have to do that from a coherent perspective, looking at the salient witnesses that we can bring forward to do the study. I'm fully prepared and fully interested in doing a study to drill down and find out what went wrong. I just think that getting this mass of documents ahead of time is, without having an opportunity to narrow the scope according to the witnesses and find out what the problems might be, extraordinarily problematic.

I certainly will support this amendment. If this amendment is not going to pass, and one hopes it does, we will basically go back and start to work on the original motion to see if we can make it more effective and more useful.

Anyway, my perspective is that we absolutely want to do this study. We want to find out what went wrong, and there is absolutely nothing we're seeking to hide here. We just want to undertake a process that's most likely to give us answers that are meaningful.