Evidence of meeting #17 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you, Mr. Judd.
We'll now go over to the government side. Mr. MacKenzie, go ahead for seven minutes, please.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Mr. Elcock, I think you were director during the time this event took place. I would just ask you this: Did we ever ask the Americans to detain Mr. Arar, and did we ask the Americans to send him to Syria? And is it fair to say that we don't know what information the Americans had on their own?
9:35 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
Clearly, at the end of the day, as Mr. Judd said, the ideal situation is for us to share information with our allies to identify threats, but there are cases in which we would not have all the information that some of our allies might have or other countries might have. So there is never any certainty about what information your allies hold.
With respect to discussions with the Americans at that point in time, we didn't have any discussions with the Americans around that period on those issues.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
My point is that we don't know why the Americans did what they did, nor did we direct them to do so or ask them to do so.
9:40 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
Certainly the service did not.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Okay.
The other issue this committee has dealt with regards the information provided to the former government during that period of time. There's been some dispute about former cabinet ministers not being aware. During that period of time, particularly when it became known, how much information would have been shared with the appropriate ministers? Would they have been briefed on the situation?
9:40 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
Certainly I briefed our minister regularly on issues, including issues around the Arar affair and the broader context. But we were not a primary participant at that point.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
And about the concern that maybe some erroneous information had been shared?
9:40 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
The first that I became aware that erroneous information might have been shared was I guess from the coverage of the commissioner's statement.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Okay, fair enough.
When we talk about what other governments may have on Canadian citizens, is it also fair to say that we may have information on citizens from other countries that we haven't necessarily shared with those countries?
9:40 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
That would be correct.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
So it's not unusual that somebody may have some information that has not come back to us? I recognize it is a two-way street. I think we've been very clear about that. But from time to time, there will be information held in a country that is not necessarily shared about its citizens?
9:40 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
That's correct.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
When we talk about this whole issue with Mr. Arar, is it fair to say that the Canadian involvement--I think it was the commissioner who said that we don't know what we don't know about why the Americans made the decision to do what they did--in the whole thing was very small because we simply don't know what they knew?
9:40 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
We were not party to all the information the Americans had.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
So we may or may not have played a major role in what ultimately happened to Mr. Arar?
9:40 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by “we”. In this case, I gather information was provided to the Americans. We hadn't provided it.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
No, but because we did not have the Americans appear before Mr. Justice O'Connor, we don't know what information they had and what they dealt with.
9:40 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
That's correct.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Fair enough.
The other issue that has frequently been brought up around the table is identifying the source of the leaks. Having a little bit of background in that area, I recognize the almost impossible task we can go through. I think from time to time we need to look at other places. There was a book written in the United States and about 35 years later the source of the leaks appeared. He identified himself.
Would you suggest that the sources of leaks are extremely difficult to identify?
9:40 a.m.
Former Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS)
It is very difficult to identify the source of leaks. In this case, as Mr. Judd said, although we did an internal investigation, there was no suggestion that it was a CSIS source.
9:40 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you, Mr. MacKenzie.
We'll now begin our second round of questioning. This is a five-minute round. We'll begin with the official opposition.
Mr. Alghabra, please, for five minutes.
October 31st, 2006 / 9:40 a.m.
Liberal
Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for coming here today.
It probably would be fair to characterize the Maher Arar case as probably one of the biggest, if not the biggest, intelligence failure that our country has seen--from targeting an innocent individual in an investigation, to sharing information beyond the normal protocols, to creating leaks, to misleading government officials. It's serious stuff. I think the majority of Canadians are very nervous. They have lost a certain amount of confidence about the intelligence community in our country.
I think what is making Canadians more anxious is the fact that after the findings of Justice O'Connor's report, beyond verbal assurances and pledges, we have yet to see concrete and tangible measures being implemented by any of the intelligence agencies to assure us that these errors are never going to happen again.
Can you comment, Mr. Judd, on some operational and tangible measures that CSIS has taken, beyond making pledges, which are welcome and needed?
9:45 a.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
If I may, I'd like to just clarify a few things about your question. CSIS did not share information with any foreign government about Mr. Arar.