Public Safety Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

One thing appears certain: Commissioner Zaccardelli never mentioned to you that Mr. Arar may have been deported to Syria on the basis of inaccurate information conveyed by the RCMP to US authorities.

[Anne McLellan]

No, never. As I mentioned in relation to Mr. Holland's question, the first time that I heard there had been incorrect information provided to the United States of America authorities in the United States was when I read Mr. Justice O'Connor's report.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Commissioner Zaccardelli therefore gave you the impression that the Americans must have had their own good reasons, irrespective of the RCMP's position, for deporting Mr. Arar to Syria.

[Anne McLellan]

I cannot say that we ever specifically discussed that. If you're asking me if I believed authorities in the United States must have had their own information and/or reasons for deporting Mr. Arar to Syria, yes. It's fair to say that in my own mind I presumed that the most persuasive evidence that led to Mr. Arar's deportation was what the Americans themselves had, not anything provided by Canadians.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Given the need for many democratic societies to band together in the fight against terrorism, do you find it acceptable that the United States, if it did have its own reasons for suspecting a Canadian citizen of having ties to terrorism, failed to share these reasons with the RCMP?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That will have to be your final question, Mr. Ménard.

[Anne McLellan]

While I know it is somewhat murky—and Mr. Judd and Mr. Elcock both testified to this, or at least Mr. Judd did—one would like to think that if the United States had information in their possession in relation to a Canadian citizen, albeit a dual citizen, and that information led them to believe he was involved in some kind of terrorist activity, was associated with known terrorists, and so on, they would convey that information to their counterparts in Canada. To me, that would be a reasonable expectation, but it is my understanding, from testimony, that this did not happen.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

All right. Thank you very much.

We will now move to the NDP's Mr. Comartin, for seven minutes, please.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. McLellan, for being here. Let me just go quickly, because I don't have a lot of time.

Throughout the entire time that you were minister responsible for this file, you at no time were ever told that any of our intelligence agencies, including the RCMP, had ever used terms describing Mr. Arar as being anything but a person of interest. Is that correct?

[Anne McLellan]

That's right, and never were expressions such as “Islamic extremist” ever used in my presence.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Or “terrorist” or the one that was floating around in those leaks? There was also one about some kind of “fanatic Islamic” or something. Those were the three terms that we heard, but you never heard any of those. You never got a briefing that indicated to you that he was anything in those categories.

[Anne McLellan]

No, I did not.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Here's the difficulty that I have, and I think a lot of Canadian citizens do too, including even those who have maybe just marginally followed this file over the four or five years since Mr. Arar was deported.

Periodically two things happen. We heard veiled comments from Americans—Mr. Ashcroft, Mr. Cellucci, I'm quite sure, and I think from Mr. Ridge. They would never, of course, be forthright enough to say “This is what we got from the Canadians”, but there were veiled comments. “You knew”—“you” meaning Canada, because I don't mean you personally—“and your agencies knew why we used rendition against him to send him to Syria.” That was in the media repeatedly. I can recall particularly when Mr. Cellucci said that, because I've had a discussion with him about it. I'm quite sure Mr. Ashcroft did as well. So we had that.

And then we had the media leaks in which terms like “Islamic extremist” and “terrorist” were floated, describing Mr. Arar. Some of those were before you became minister and some were after, but as the minister during that period of time, did you not question whether that description of Mr. Arar, those allegations, and those accusations levelled at Mr. Arar, were coming from our intelligence services? Did you ever ask the RCMP or any of our intelligence services whether they were coming from us? And I have to say, Ms. McLellan, if you didn't, why didn't you?

[Anne McLellan]

Your question has a lot of different components to it, and I may not hit them all, so remind me.

I was very concerned about the leaks. There were a number of investigations going on in relation to who was leaking what to whom. Leaks had been an ongoing concern for me, as some of you know, in a number of the portfolios that I held, so leaks were an issue in terms of what was being leaked and by whom. But as you know, we still apparently don't know anything about that, although there may still be some investigation going on.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Didn't that prompt you to ask the RCMP if that was information that we ever divulged? It just seems to be logical—

[Anne McLellan]

To the Americans?

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Yes, to the Americans.

[Anne McLellan]

I knew that the RCMP had exchanged information with the United States. We have in fact an ongoing information-sharing relationship, and Mr. Justice O'Connor indicates how important that relationship is for everyone's shared well-being.

There was no surprise, for me, that the RCMP and/or CSIS would share information with one of our key allies.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It's what they shared, Ms. McLellan; that's the point. You've been told throughout that “person of interest” is what we shared with them.

[Anne McLellan]

That's what I was briefed.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

When the leaks were occurring, did you not say: wait a minute, is it possible that we did this? It's an obvious question that I would have asked the head of the RCMP and Mr. Judd and Mr. Elcock--all of them.

[Anne McLellan]

As I say, I was concerned about the leaks and whether they thought these leaks were coming from their organizations, absolutely.

They, I think it's fair to say, probably in a general sense, as much as they could, reassured me that they did not believe the leaks were coming from their organizations.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

What about the substance of the leaks? What about whether the leaks were in fact substantial? Did you question them again at that period of time? Or did Commissioner Zaccardelli offer to say, in that period of time, this is not information coming from us because this is not true?

[Anne McLellan]

No. That was not said to me.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

You don't think that's strange, in retrospect?