Public Safety Committee on Nov. 28th, 2006

[Anne McLellan]

I think that the government of the time made all reasonable efforts to free Mr. Arar from Syria, and Mr. Justice O'Connor made that point quite clearly in his report. He does not really criticize the Canadian government, the Minister of Foreign Affairs, our consular officials, and others, in terms of the actions they took to try to get Mr. Arar out of Syria.

Mr. Justice O'Connor talks about the fact that he had some concerns around the one-voice letter and what happened or didn't happen. But overall, he felt that the Canadian government discharged its obligations and responsibilities, in relation to getting Mr. Arar out of Syria and letting the Syrians know we wanted him back. In fact, Prime Minister Chrétien wrote such a letter to the Syrians.

In a sense, we didn't even need some kind of statement from the RCMP that Mr. Arar was completely innocent. What we wanted was Mr. Arar, as a Canadian citizen, out of Syria and back in this country. We believed that it was singularly inappropriate for the United States to deport a Canadian citizen to a third country, without even consulting Canada about that deportation. So we wanted him back.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

We'll move to the final questioner for this round. Mr. Hawn.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. McLellan, it's good to see you again.

Before I get to a couple of questions I'd just like to echo the incredulity across the way at the lack of curiosity of the Minister of Public Safety, and that there wouldn't have been more probing on your part, given the information in the public domain available to 32 million people that suggested Maher Arar may have been something beyond being a person of interest.

I want to follow up a little on Mr. Brown's questions. Were you ever told by the RCMP or your deputy that the information supplied to PCO was inaccurate or incomplete?

[Anne McLellan]

No.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Did you ever speak with people at PCO about the Arar case during your time as minister? If so, did those people include Rob Wright and Bill Elliott?

[Anne McLellan]

I'm not so sure about Bill Elliott, but certainly Rob Wright. He was national security adviser to the Prime Minister.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Were you provided with information about that PCO brief, including its actual content, or whether the department had been advised?

[Anne McLellan]

No. I never knew that some kind of briefing note had been provided to PCO. PCO receives dozens of briefing notes every day from different agencies and organizations in government. I would not necessarily be made aware of any particular briefing note.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Given your ministerial responsibilities, do you agree or not that this was information you should have been provided, whether from the RCMP, CSIS, or your department, if they were aware that the RCMP briefing to the PCO was inaccurate or incomplete? Should they not have spoken up if they knew that?

[Anne McLellan]

I suppose at some point, when the RCMP knew they had sent a briefing note to PCO that was incomplete or erroneous, they should have certainly corrected that with PCO. Whether I would know that or not, or whether I should, was not necessarily germane. As I said, the RCMP provided briefing notes, as did CSIS and others, to PCO at their request, which is perfectly normal.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Given the profile of the Arar case, if they knew there was something amiss don't you think they had a responsibility to tell you? Wouldn't you have expected that?

[Anne McLellan]

They told the Clerk of the Privy Council and anyone who requested that note, absolutely. I believe that note was provided to PCO before I became minister, based on the timelines, but I'm not sure about that.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Commissioner Zaccardelli has told this committee that he personally learned of the RCMP errors in November 2002, and he thereafter briefed ministers and officials about what he had supposedly learned. Mr. Elcock, Mr. Easter, and you deny hearing that.

I know you weren't minister at the time, but I'd ask your opinion. Do you think we should be calling Ms. Bloodworth to testify before this committee? There's a collective lack of memory, or something more deliberate perhaps at the highest levels of the Canadian security bureaucracy, which thankfully Justice O'Connor has exposed.

[Anne McLellan]

It's up to the committee to determine whether you want to call Margaret Bloodworth. She was my deputy from December 13, 2003, forward, after Mr. Arar returned to this country. I think she was Deputy Minister of National Defence before that. I'm not sure what direct information she would have in relation to the Arar situation. If you felt that she had useful information, I'm sure you could call her.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

We have three ministers now on one side and one commissioner on the other side, in terms of who knew what.

[Anne McLellan]

I understand you're going to call Commissioner Zaccardelli back. He may very well clarify some of his comments on what he knew when. I can only testify as to what I knew when. The first time I knew that the RCMP had provided inaccurate information to the United States was when I read Mr. Justice O'Connor's report.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Given all the information in the public before that, it never sparked your curiosity to be more forceful with people in departments your department was responsible for, to ask—

[Anne McLellan]

As I said, we were concerned about leaks. Why would I assume that the RCMP would not follow their normal operating principles in relation to the provision of information to the United States? There were protocols in place, and there were caveats. That was part of the normal operating procedure. There was no reason to presume that the RCMP would not have followed normal procedures.

By the time I became minister there was sufficient concern and murkiness around certain things, especially comments made by Mr. Arar as to his treatment, that the then Prime Minister said, “Anne, I want us to get to the bottom of this.” I immediately began to work toward a process by which we got to the bottom of this. That of course led to the appointment of Mr. Justice O'Connor within two months, which, as you're probably learning, is virtually lightning speed within the Government of Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Final question.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I applaud you for that.

Given that there are so many questions unanswered, and I frankly doubt that we'll ever get much satisfaction on this, what's your view of a parliamentary oversight committee to oversee the operation of the Canadian security services?

[Anne McLellan]

Of course I introduced legislation to that effect. Monsieur Ménard, Mr. Comartin, my former colleague, Irwin Cotler, all worked very hard, as did Mr. Sorenson and others, in relation to the creation of such a committee. I introduced legislation just before we were defeated in the House last November--painful event as that was. I introduced legislation last year, and while there was not unanimous agreement on all aspects of it--and Mr. Comartin or Mr. Ménard might speak to this--I think we worked conscientiously in an all-party fashion, House of Commons and Senate, to put forward a piece of legislation creating a parliamentary oversight mechanism similar to that in the United Kingdom, where you would have parliamentarians come together in a non-partisan way, because national security is not a partisan issue. You would in fact create an all-party committee the members of which take a special oath, so they have access to sensitive information, and they work in such a way that they are able to provide an additional, and I think important, degree of oversight in relation to national security agencies and activities.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I can't say that I share your pain.

[Anne McLellan]

No, I didn't expect you to.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you. We very much appreciate your attitude toward that. Anyway, thank you.

Mr. Alghabra, for five minutes, please.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, Ms. McLellan. It's good to see you again.

First I want to go back to a point that was mentioned earlier, particularly by Mr. Brown. You brought up the fact that, yes, there is a possibility that the Americans had other information that led them to the deportation of Mr. Arar to Syria.

I want to make it very clear, and I want to see if you agree with me, that it is indisputable that the RCMP had sent misleading information to the American authorities. I think it's very difficult to argue that it did not contribute to the deportation of Mr. Arar to Syria. Is that a factual statement?