Evidence of meeting #30 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was training.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
Yes, sir.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
If the RCMP were to commit to the Government of Canada and to the CBSA to enter into an agreement to train border services personnel within accepted training standards in Canada and indeed North America, you would feel comfortable with that assurance given by the RCMP?
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
Yes, sir, very much so.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
And you would be comfortable being able to provide the Government of Canada with an opportunity to allow the OPP or any other police force in Canada to enter into training jointly with the RCMP, to work on those standards of training?
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
It wouldn't necessarily be any police force in Canada, but certainly most of the large police departments, yes, and many small ones. I'm not trying to pick on the small ones, but some police departments are a little more advanced than others in terms of training. So I would be a little more cautious on who, but once there was an agreed-upon training standard, with approved instructors, that could be done.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Just so that I and others can understand, I'd like to go back to the psychological training. Would it be correct to say that the psychological testing we're referring to is done before the recruit or the candidate is hired?
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
That's right. They have to pass that before we actually accept them into the organization. We conduct subsequent psychological tests depending on whether they're in a specialized function, such as undercover work, canine, tactical teams, etc. Other than that, the average uniformed police officer in the OPP receives the testing only prior to being hired.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you.
Before we go to Mr. Hawn, I would like to ask a brief question.
I'm wondering if the OPP has had any experience with Canadian border service guards having to withdraw from their posts because they were informed that someone from the U.S. was approaching who was dangerous, probably armed.
Have you had any experience, sir, with that kind of situation, or are you aware of it? If so, what was done in that situation? If you haven't experienced it, or you're not aware of it, what would you have done if you had been informed that these border guards had to withdraw and you had to go and take over?
In other words, what would be an on-the-ground example of what you would do?
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
I personally haven't been involved in that. I've heard that this has occurred, but I couldn't even state where. I believe it happened in Cornwall at least once or twice, but I couldn't state that for certain.
If as a police officer I were called to that event, I certainly would not start conducting the activities or the operations of the Canada Border Services Agency officer. It would be more to secure the scene and to protect anyone from any target or suspect who may arrive. Traffic would come to a standstill, in all likelihood. We would investigate and try to figure out what had happened and what we needed to do to mitigate the situation and get the CBSA people back out on the line to do their jobs and get traffic moving again. We certainly wouldn't start doing their work. We're not trained to do that.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome, Deputy Commissioner. Thank you for being here.
I'd like to follow up on the enforcement culture that Ms. Barnes talked about. Is it fair to say that there are two sides to enforcement culture--that is, the side felt by the officer and the side felt by the public?
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
Oh, I would imagine, yes.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
We've all encountered police officers and we've all encountered customs people. I think it's fair to say, and you can agree or not, that people are encouraged to look upon police officers as their friend, not just as the local enforcer.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
Certainly you'd like to think most police officers like to have that type of relationship with the public.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
And last, as an individual--and we can all relate. I'll suggest I've never gone to a customs border guy or gal and said, there's my friend; they're going to help me. Is that a fair statement?
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
In fairness, I have some personal friends I've met over the years, but I've also gone through and dealt with the nicest, friendliest people in the world, and I certainly have dealt with others who weren't. I'm sure the same holds true for some police officers.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Absolutely, and there's no question about that.
But to suggest there's a lack of enforcement culture between the public and the CBSA, I don't think is an accurate statement.
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
I don't think so. I think there's a pretty strong enforcement culture.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
No. There's a pretty strong enforcement culture.
I have another question from Mr. Carrier. Concerning the question about success rate, obviously we don't know what the success rate will be in a new program like this where you're starting with a mature organization and starting a new program. In your personal view, are legitimate questions about what the ultimate success rate would be at the start of a program like this, due to age or other factors, reasons in themselves not to start the program?
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
I don't believe so, no.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
You mentioned that the OPP has 6,000 in uniform and 2,000 civilians. Is there an establishment for the OPP? Are you at the establishment? Are you fully staffed?
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
We're never fully staffed. Just through attrition, we are always in recruiting mode. At any given time, we hire at least a couple of hundred recruits a year.
Conservative
Laurie Hawn Conservative Edmonton Centre, AB
Do the 6,000 uniforms you have match the establishment, or are you always playing catch-up?
Acting Deputy Commissioner, Field Operations, Ontario Provincial Police
We're always playing catch-up. Particularly in recent years, there have been a lot of retirements because of the hiring glut of 30 years ago, etc., so we're into more retirements right now than we had been. It's tough to keep up the recruiting to match that attrition.