Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2007

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Is there any increase in establishment, and therefore staffing, that is intended to correspond to or keep pace with the increase in general population or demographic shifts in the population?

[Chris D. Lewis]

For sure. We analyze statistics constantly in terms of the number of calls per officer, the number of hours they spend on those calls, and those are built into the individual contracts with the municipalities.

At any given time, we can say the workload has increased x, so we have to hire x more officers to meet that workload in the new contract. And sometimes you're playing catch-up with that too.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

So have you been able to recruit, train, and retain to match that?

[Chris D. Lewis]

Generally speaking, we have, sir, but it has become more and more challenging all across Canada in recent years.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

So is it safe to say that with that kind of a challenge, the issue of response times and distances in response to a border situation could become more problematic as the population grows, and so on?

[Chris D. Lewis]

It could be, but not greatly. I think we generally keep pace with our workload.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Okay.

Arms smugglers are obviously armed, it goes without saying. In your experience--and maybe it's just anecdotal, but I'm looking for a number. I know you probably can't give me one, but other types of smugglers, whether it's cigarettes or booze or whatever, are they typically armed or unarmed?

[Chris D. Lewis]

They're quite often armed, particularly with high-priced loads like narcotics. They are not necessarily armed. You never really know. They're not necessarily armed to fight off law enforcement agencies. They're often armed to fight their competition.

For example, and it's tough to equate people who are selling drugs out of houses to smugglers, but I think while executing narcotics warrants, we have seen a rise to an alarming level in the number of firearms. And it is mostly protecting themselves against other drug dealers and the competitiveness in those turf wars, but they're there constantly.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

If they were confronted with an armed CBSA agent, would they be more or less likely to draw their firearm?

[Chris D. Lewis]

That probably varies, depending on the individual and their history and their mental state, etc. There are no hard and fast rules.

I think the average sane person is less likely to take aggressive action against someone who is armed than they are if someone is not armed.

For example, over the years, as I've travelled unarmed at times, in a suit and tie, and I've had to stop someone for reckless driving, I get a whole different feeling from the person I'm dealing with than if I were standing there with my uniform and my gun on. They want to challenge you much, much more because they suspect you're not armed because you're in a suit and tie.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

This is my last question. In your opinion, are the borders and the public at the borders or in the vicinity of the borders, the communities around them, going to be more or less safe with CBSA's being armed?

[Chris D. Lewis]

I think, number one, the officers will be safer. I think if the officers are safer, they're better equipped to ultimately protect public safety there. If someone pulls out a gun at a border crossing now, and there are five lines of traffic and there is not a single gun among CBSA people, the potential for any member of the public as well as for the CBSA people to get hurt is very great. If they can mitigate that circumstance by pulling a gun or exhibiting a firearm, or potentially just letting people know it's there and not pulling the gun in an aggressive manner, then public safety has been improved.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you very much. That's all I have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Barnes, you had some follow-up questions?

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Yes, thank you.

I just want to reiterate again that I was speaking of a Senate report, and I hope Mr. Hawn noted that.

To me, arming border guards is a serious issue. It's not about who is friendlier. It's a serious piece of work here that we're trying to do.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

But that's a serious perception. It's part of a serious issue. It's a very relevant question.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I think it's my time. Thank you.

I did want to ask you about the storage of firearms by off-duty officers, because we've had conflicting evidence in prior hearings. I was wondering what the protocol is for the OPP. Do officers take their guns home? What's your protocol? I'm just looking for informational pieces. I'm sure it has to be consistent and strict, and you must have a protocol. Does this, to your knowledge, vary with different municipal officers? As I understand it, the protocol for arming border guards has not yet been divulged to us.

[Chris D. Lewis]

Our policy is that you will store your firearm at work in an approved storage facility. Our detachments have them, and they're inspected. They have specific areas where they can safely unload the weapon—they're trained how to do that—and store it in a safe manner.

Some officers do bring their firearms home. That's only with written permission by the Commissioner of the OPP. That is in the case of specialists who don't necessarily go to the office all the time—some investigators, undercover people, etc. Because I travel a lot and I'm not always going to the office, at times I have my firearm at home. I keep it locked up. I have a specific locked container in the trunk of my car that's cabled into the trunk, etc. It's very safe. But those who do bring their weapon home specifically have to make sure it's stored safely, as does any other member of the public, in accordance with the Criminal Code of Canada.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

But your evidence is that the majority of officers are storing their weapons in off-duty hours at the facility of work.

[Chris D. Lewis]

Yes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

I think it would go without saying, but I'd like you to confirm it anyway, that this must be a very secure facility that you would have for storage.

[Chris D. Lewis]

Yes.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

Do you know if there are secure enough facilities on-site at border crossings right now to safely store firearms?

[Chris D. Lewis]

I don't know. I would assume maybe some buildings are better than others, but you can buy commercially or have designed lockers in which individuals can lock their firearms up, which are secure.

[Sue Barnes, Liberal, London West, ON]

In your opinion, would this be an extra cost to getting facilities ready if we were arming at all of our border points?