Evidence of meeting #44 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was million.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Don Demers  Acting Commissioner, Correctional Service Canada
Beverley A. Busson  Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Mario Dion  Chairperson, National Parole Board
Stephen Rigby  Executive Vice-President, Canada Border Services Agency
Suzanne Hurtubise  Deputy Minister, Department of Public Safety
Jim Judd  Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to bring this meeting to order.

This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting number 44. We are examining the main estimates today.

We welcome the minister to the committee, but we'll ask the media to please leave the room.

Thank you very much.

As I just said, we welcome the Minister of Public Safety, the Hon. Stockwell Day, to our committee this morning. We look forward to some opening remarks from you, sir. You have beside you your officials as well, and you can take a minute, if you'd like, to introduce them, and then you can begin your remarks.

11:05 a.m.

Okanagan—Coquihalla B.C.

Conservative

Stockwell Day ConservativeMinister of Public Safety

Thank you, Chairman and members of the committee. I appreciate the time to be here to go over some of the key items related to this portfolio.

I look forward to what in the past has been good, incisive analysis and good recommendations from the committee, in an all-party way, and I look forward to that continuing.

With me today is Don Demers, our senior deputy commissioner for Correctional Service Canada; Jim Judd, as you know, heads up CSIS; my deputy, Suzanne Hurtubise; our Commissioner of the RCMP, Beverley Busson; Stephen Rigby, the executive vice-president for our Canada Border Services Agency; and Mario Dion is here representing the National Parole Board.

Let me just give you a big-picture breakdown of this portfolio, and then we'll get into some specifics. If you kind of have the large numbers in the back of your mind, they give you some sense of the order of magnitude here.

Last year the budget required to cover these portfolios was about $6 billion. This year it's $6.5 billion. That's an increase of 8%. It takes up 3.1% of the entire government spending, so it gives you some sense of the order of magnitude. There are about 55,000 employees throughout all the various agencies. This is a large portfolio.

When you're thinking of 55,000 employees, when you're thinking of $6.5 billion, really, it's broken down into four main areas. Now there are others that are equally important, but the four main areas are, first, $2.3 billion for the RCMP, and that's about 26,000 people across the country. So that's really the biggest of the four of the big areas.

Then obviously, if they're doing their job, there will be an effect on our corrections system, and that's the next largest number of dollars that falls under this $6.5 billion. There's $1.8 billion there. That's about 15,400 people working not just in the prisons themselves but also in the various outreach and other follow-up facilities--parole officers, and so on.

Protecting our borders takes about $1.4 billion out of this budget, and the number of people who are directly employed with CBSA is about 13,000, again across the country. That does not include, by the way—and it's important to say this because sometimes the lines are blurred—the individuals who check you at the airport as you're going through the scanners and all of that. Those are not CBSA people; that's CATSA, and those folks work under Transport Canada.

Completing the four pillars of protection is CSIS itself, with a budget of approximately $346 million and about 2,500 employees. That budget is actually the fifth largest of the groupings, because slightly larger than that budget is in fact the budget of the department itself: about $428 million, with 995 people there. That $428 million and those 995 people include emergency planning as well as everything that's required to give the support in this large agency. So it covers a lot of ground and a lot of territory.

With that context, let me give you some specifics in this particular budget that show you what is additional to $1.4 billion that was added on last year in the 2006 budget. Let me give you some specific items that are directly related to the 2007 budget: $64 million for the crackdown on gangs, to combat illicit drug production, prevent illicit drug use, and treat illicit drug dependency; $14 million over the next two years to improve front-end screening of first-time firearms licence applicants, and we'll get into that in a little bit more detail as we get to that part of the budget; $6 million per year to the RCMP, and again this is added, this is extra, just to strengthen the current programs and activities protecting children from sexual exploitation and human trafficking; $10 million over the next two years to expand the activities of the Canadian Police Research Centre and to establish its base in Regina; $80 million over the next two years to allow CSIS to operate more effectively in investigating the threat of terrorism—we don't get into a lot of detail on where that's going to go, but that is largely to increase personnel; $3.5 million to support the review of Canada's correctional system, and that's going on right now and they'll be delivering their report by October; $102 million, which is new to this budget, for the Correctional Service of Canada to look at some of its key requirements, and I'll touch on those in just a minute; $1 million over the next two years for the Canadian arm of the International Association of Firefighters, and that's to increase their training related to the handling of hazardous material.

That gives you some pinpoint, specific items in terms of some of the actual increases that are going to be on this particular budget.

That is why I am pleased to be here today to present the spending plan which will enable us to reach our objectives.

I'll break it down now in a little more detail and then turn it over to you folks. I'll just use my allotted time here of approximately 10 minutes, which is about half done, I can see.

This is National Police Week. I'm sure you're aware of that. It gives us an opportunity to highlight the incredible work that the various police agencies do across the country.

I just might say, on an editorial note, that obviously the RCMP has been the recipient of a lot of very incisive analysis over the last several months, if I can say it that way, as euphemistically as possible. I appreciated the comments of the complaints commissioner, the person who, in effect—I'm saying this in a positive sense—goes after the RCMP with complaints filed by people. With all of the focus on the RCMP lately, his comments reflect what I think most people feel, that this is an organization that continues to be recognized throughout the world for its integrity, for its professionalism, for the manner in which it goes about its activities of supplying the safety and security for our citizens. There has been a small number of cases and individuals who perhaps did not perform and did not respond the way they should have, and that's at the senior levels. I think it's important just to keep that in context as we look at the RCMP and the important tasks those men and women in uniform perform, day in and day out, protecting us and keeping our streets safe.

Do you remember last year, in Budget 2006, we put $161 million for the next two years for our commitment of 1,000 officers? By the end of the fiscal year, 241 of those positions will be filled. The $37 million that we committed to Depot is moving ahead in terms of added construction for facilities, for training facilities, for the physical infrastructure, and to enhance the field coaching. The program there is going to make sure that all Depot graduates are paired with senior officers when they graduate, so that a mentoring program will be fully engaged. And those will be veteran officers who've completed the RCMP field coaching course.

As I've already mentioned, there is an additional $6 million for the RCMP in terms of the protection of children, and about a third of the $64 million that we've allocated for the anti-drug strategy is going to be invested to support Canada's criminal justice system in combatting illicit drug production, grow-ops, methamphetamine labs, which we are going after in an increased way.

We talk about the long arm of the law, but there are the open arms of the communities, the balanced way in which we have to go after enforcement and make sure we're doing everything we can there, but also in prevention. That's why in January I announced $16.1 million in funding for youth at risk, targeting the emerging problem of youth gangs and violence in many communities. The purpose of this funding is to make sure young people are reached out to, especially those at risk, that they understand there are other choices that can be made, hopefully, to protect them from getting into a life of crime. So we see a significant number of resources going into that particular area.

When we look at the area of firearms and tackling gun violence through effective gun control, that's another pillar of our public safety agenda, and $14 million is being invested to enhance the front-end screening, interviews that will actually happen now, one on one, with individuals applying for a firearms licence. It will be 100% of individuals who are applying for restricted firearms--that's mainly handguns, for instance--who are going to have one-on-one interviews. We need to enhance the ability of screening out at the front end those people who possibly would be at risk in terms of having a firearms licence.

I just want to reiterate that I appreciate that there's a difference of opinion in terms of how we're doing the firearms analysis and firearms protection, but we need to be careful in the language. Often in the debate I hear, and it just gets repeated when people say it, that we're getting rid of the firearm registry, that we're getting rid of the gun registry. We are not getting rid of the gun registry. We are sticking with our commitment to get out of the money-losing and ineffective portion of the non-restricted long guns, but we are maintaining the handgun registry, the restricted firearm registry, the prohibited registry. So whatever side we are on in the debate, I would respectfully ask that we don't cast this net of fear out there by simply making a public statement that we're abandoning the firearm registry. We are not. We're maintaining it, other than the one particular portion of it, about which the Auditor General and others have mentioned that the data is not good and the money was not spent effectively. We want to make sure the money goes to going after people who are committing the crimes or at risk of committing the crimes.

On the border, we announced last year that we're moving ahead with the arming of the border officers and that we're adding 400 more border officers so that we don't have work-alone situations. That is moving ahead. By this summer, by August, you will see the first border officers, the CBSA officers, with sidearms. You will see a reduction in the number of remote or work-alone situations.

This year, for those two activities--training, arming, and also starting to fill in the 400 positions--$60.5 million is in Budget 2007-08 to address that particular area. That's the security side of the border.

On the prosperity side, to make sure that traffic continues, that low-risk business continues, that low-risk travel continues, there's $97 million for an electronic manifest system where truckers will forward all the information before they even get to the border. There is $6.9 million for business resumption planning; if there's an incident at the border we have to make sure that traffic can continue to move across as quickly as possible. The NEXUS program and the partners in protection program all give businesses the ability to apply for security status and to be able to move across quite quickly.

I see the chairman is very excited about what I'm saying, and he's so excited he's giving me the signal to tell you even more.

As I said, there's $80 million for CSIS to help there. On the domestic security side, we've listed two organizations, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam and Hezb-e Islami Gulbuddin--two more terrorist groups that have been listed.

In Corrections, there's $102 million more to address their infrastructure needs and also pressures of increased complexity with offenders, mental health needs, training and protective equipment for staff.

Mr. Chairman, I could go on and on, but you are, as I am, wanting to hear from others. That just gives you a broad brush, some of the larger things we're doing. I'm certainly looking forward to comments from members and added advice they can give me at this time.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you, Mr. Minister, for those opening remarks. You've given us quite an overview of the department.

As is our usual practice, we will begin the questioning, seven minutes, with the official opposition.

Mrs. Barnes, please.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thought last week the parliamentary secretary had assured me that our minister would be here for the full length of the meeting, and I understand now that you're leaving after an hour. That's unfortunate, because there are many areas in the many areas you are responsible for that we would like to have canvassed.

I'll start without a lot of preliminary. With respect to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police Act, does the minister anticipate any review or any corrections to this act in the near future? Specifically, I would ask him to consider the provision under formal disciplinary action of the limitation period of one year that currently exists within this act, which prevents further recourse. I'd like to hear from him on that point first.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Thanks. Good question.

My understanding...and I don't want this to take away from the member's time, Mr. Chairman. This is just to clarify something. I had indicated that my officials would be here for two hours, and that I would be able to stay for an hour, as I had a previous engagement.

I'm just wondering if you'd allow me to check something here for a second. Anyway, I thought that was the understanding. I did check with my predecessor. She appeared before this committee four times in her tenure. I've been here six times in 15 months, so I don't think I could be accused of not wanting to be with you.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I hope this isn't my time being used.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I stopped the clock, Ms. Barnes. It's not going to cost you anything.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you. I appreciate that, Mr. Chair.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'm being very fair and honest.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Chairman, without breaking driving speed records, we can make an adjustment. I can stay an extra half an hour, so I can be here an hour and a half, if that's—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

That's good. Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

The question the member has raised, Chairman, has been one of concern to me. This period gives the appearance that if a time lag of more than a year takes place when an RCMP member is being investigated for something or there has been a complaint, then due process has not been seen to have been fairly applied, and it gives the appearance that a person then is not subject to certain types of actions after a year. This has concerned me. Also, I've raised this with the commissioner.

First, I make plain that the one year that is stipulated right now does not in any way protect or absolve anybody from any kind of criminal charge, so there's no statute of limitations there.

But I'm still somewhat concerned about this one-year provision. I've talked to the commissioner about that, and we are looking at ways to address that so that it doesn't apply the way it has been and so that proper discipline can be followed past that time.

There is the balance there between not wanting to leave something hanging over somebody's head, but—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I think, Minister, you would find support for that to happen. Thank you very much.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Yes, we're looking at that, so I thank you for raising it.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Also, I'm not going to recount all the things that are going on within the RCMP. I think the public is very much aware of that.

I would like to hear your thoughts, Minister, on some sort of oversight of the RCMP. It has been recommended in different forms, either from this committee or from reports that have been tabled with this government. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

I've been working on something, and it has been based on recommendations from the O'Connor report and also from other groups that have raised concerns about oversight. I'm just asking for a little more time, but I will be bringing something forward for your consideration, and it relates to RCMP oversight.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Thank you.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

So stay tuned on that one, and hopefully it will be coming to a theatre near you soon.

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

I want to go now to Correctional Service Canada. On page 65 of the blue book, the government forecast planning spending on rehabilitation and case management will fall from $20.5 million to $17.7 million this year and to a very low—in our opinion—$7.7 million next year.

What is the government taking out of Correctional Service Canada on rehabilitation and case management at the penitentiary level?

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

As you know, we have an increase overall in terms of the global...I'll ask Don to comment on that specifically. We are increasing the funding overall to Corrections, and not just on the infrastructure side. The $102 million, which we were able to get in terms of an increase this year...some of that is going to be infrastructure, but a good portion of that is going to be towards individuals, towards work training programs, programs that would see them—

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Minister, I can just correct you there, because your capital budget actually is decreasing. It's going from $161.9 million last year to $153.7 million this year, so your capital budget is going down at Correctional Service Canada.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

I'm just going to speak to that. Overall, you're going to see an increase because we've had an increase of $102 million.

On the first one, on the specifics, I'll ask Don to comment on the training portion there.

Have you got that page number? Could you give us the reference again?

11:20 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

It's pages 64 and 65 of the blue book. Rehabilitation and case management is on page 65 and capital expenditures is on page 64, both showing decreases. The most significant decrease is in rehabilitation. That's the Correctional Service Canada blue book. I can loan you my copy if you'd like.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Stockwell Day Conservative Okanagan—Coquihalla, BC

Well, I have a copy here, Member. I have page 22.8, so I'm not sure when you're referencing page 65.

11:25 a.m.

Liberal

Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON

Pages 64 and 65 of the 2007-08 estimates, part III, report on plans and priorities.