Evidence of meeting #47 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shur.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Can I ask both of you about the screening process? Mr. Shur, your screening process in particular is clearly much more extensive than the Canadian one. Have you looked at how we screen participants in the program?
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
I saw some references to it. I can't recite them, but my reaction to it was that we were more rigid and required more documentation. At the same time, I should not leave the impression that it requires days or weeks or months; it can all be done in hours, and there is protection of the witness while this review goes on.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
Professor Fyfe, I get the sense that you're not at all satisfied with the screening process in England.
Prof. Nick Fyfe
That's right, yes. It's a much more ad hoc arrangement and is largely done by the police officers on the protection program. In most cases it doesn't involve the use of psychologists and other people from outside the police service.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
The problem we had in the British Columbia case is that even though a psychologist was involved, his or her recommendations weren't followed by the police force.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Roy Cullen
Mr. Comartin, you have a bit more time. Mr. Norlock wanted to put in one little question, and then we're going to have to wrap up. If you want to go for another couple of minutes, you can....
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I just have one more, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Shur, do I understand correctly that there is not a commission or a committee or a council of any kind overseeing or reviewing your role and your decision-making?
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
It's anybody in line with the attorney general. The attorney general or the assistant attorney general would take no action, would not even be aware of a relocated witness I'd put in the program, unless there was some complaint about me.
NDP
Joe Comartin NDP Windsor—Tecumseh, ON
I was thinking more along the lines of somebody who wasn't satisfied with your decision.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
They could appeal to the attorney general.
Liberal
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Actually I had two, but they were very much related.
An official complaints process, Mr. Shur--is there one in place?
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
Yes.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
There is. In any program, it would be good to have a complaints process.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
I think it's essential in this particular program.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
The second part goes somewhat along with the first. It's a recommendation that there be an instituted review process. Let's say that every five years the program should be reviewed and that should be in the regulations. Would that be a recommendation you'd support? Did you, or do you, have that?
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
We don't have that. I think it's a very good suggestion that there be reviews at specific periods of time, as long as you allow for reviews in between those times, should some crises occur that suggest we've maybe got the wrong people in the wrong place--meaning employees, not the relocated witnesses.
Prof. Nick Fyfe
Yes, I would endorse that idea. I think some kind of regular review is important, but I also think the review should be as independent as possible. I think there is an issue here about the extent to which people who are practitioners or are involved in the system are reviewing their system; it is important to have an independent review.
Liberal
The Vice-Chair Liberal Roy Cullen
Good.
Thank you very much. On behalf of the committee, I'd like to thank both of you for participating at a distance or coming from distance. I think we've all found it very informative and useful.
I have a particular interest as well in the courtroom procedural and policy aspects, Professor Fyfe, that we touched on very briefly. If there's a way you could direct us to some of that work through the clerk or the researchers, it would be useful.
Again, on behalf of all of us here today, thank you very much for your very insightful and informative presentations. Thank you.