Go ahead.
Evidence of meeting #47 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shur.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #47 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shur.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
I was hoping it would be Mr. Fyfe so I could think, but I have an answer for you.
Conservative
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
I was trying to figure out how to give you an answer and not give you an answer at the same time.
One-third of all witnesses who have entered our program over the last five years have been foreign nationals. I don't want to leave the impression that they are foreign nationals who we have brought in from other countries, and I can't comment much further than that.
Conservative
Prof. Nick Fyfe
Certainly from what I'm aware of, there is far more movement of witnesses between countries, particularly within Europe, than there has been in the past. There is a specific network of witness protection liaison officers that meet regularly across Europe to discuss good practice.
Europol has acted as a forum for promoting the more efficient and effective movement of witnesses between European states. I definitely get the sense that it's a more common practice. The procedures and practices are being developed to make that process as efficient and effective as possible.
Liberal
Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON
I don't think many countries have had the experience yet, but I am wondering whether we should not have some movement to protect youth. I'm especially thinking of the case of a youth in a community who sees an event, especially involving gangs and violence.
Here we have always talked about our witness protection as being an adult thing, but at the same time, we're getting silence in some communities on coming forward, and the thought is for youth protection. It's not a highly developed area.
I'd like to hear your thoughts and whether you have knowledge of any jurisdiction that has delved into this area. That's for either witness.
Conservative
Prof. Nick Fyfe
Gosh, I could do with time to think about that one as well. It seems an important issue, and I'm not aware of any work in the U.K. that has addressed that point. Clearly, it does raise very important issues.
There has always been an issue, when you're relocating families, of moving young people between schools and of trying to ensure that that process is done with as little disruption as possible. All I can say is I think that would be an important area to explore further.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
I had occasion to do that. I had a 17-year-old who had been living on her own and occasionally living with her father. She had relevant information about crime that was necessary for us to have in court. She was afraid of her father, and her father was not objecting to her leaving home. In fact, she had left home. So I arranged for her to appear before the appropriate court jurisdiction to have her majority given to her. She was then an adult after that proceeding. We then were able to relocate her and find employment for her. That was in that case.
In one other case, we had the witness, the father, in prison. The children were subjected to violence. There was no mother. We arranged for the children to go into foster care for the time the father was in prison.
Liberal
Sue Barnes Liberal London West, ON
I have a very brief one, and it's more curiosity. The general public has marital breakdown. What happens to people in a marital breakdown situation where the whole family has gone into witness protection? Does one just walk, or what happens?
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
You get some strange events. We had one witness who asked us to relocate him and his mistress, but not his wife, who was in danger.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
Unfortunately, when you go back through 8,000 witnesses, everything has happened.
For one witness, we relocated his wife and his mistress, and his mistress went to live with his mother in the same community where we relocated the mother. We will relocate anyone who may be in danger as a result of the witness's testimony, so it might well be grandparents, or whatever. I think the largest number of people we relocated was somewhere between 20 and 25 people in one family.
As far as the marriage goes, where we have the great dispute is over child visitation, and that is a major problem. How do you arrange for visitation when it is properly court ordered, the remaining spouse is a law-abiding citizen, and the spouse who left has remarried and has custody of the children by a local court order?
What we do is arrange for visitation. The children would be accompanied by the United States marshals, and we call them neutral site visitations. The children are taken to Disneyland, and the mother who wants to visit with them goes to Disneyland. She does not know where the ex-husband lives, and she gets to visit with her children.
We follow the court-ordered process. Whatever the Domestic Relations Court orders, we do.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Professor Fyfe, do you have any comments before we go to the next questioner?
Prof. Nick Fyfe
I would simply underline the last point Mr. Shur made. One of the greatest challenges in our experience in the U.K. is maintaining access to children when the parents have separated. As Mr. Shur explained, there are lots of logistical issues around that, in order to make sure the process doesn't compromise the security of the people involved.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
Yes, please. May I add an important one, which I forgot, and that concerns child support?
If the parent removed has been ordered to pay child support, the United States Marshals Service provides subsistence to the relocated witness. If child support is also ordered back home, or to wherever the wife and children live, then the marshals service will provide the child support.
In other words, this will not be deducted from the subsistence. The child support will be provided, in addition to that to the family, so the family does not suffer as a result of the relocation.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you.
We will now move over to the other side of the table.
For the government, Mr. MacKenzie, please give just a brief introduction before you begin your question.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Professor Fyfe and Mr. Shur, for being here.
My name is Dave MacKenzie. I'm a member of Parliament from the riding of Oxford in Ontario, just down the road from Ms. Barnes. Her city is one of our suburbs.