Evidence of meeting #47 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was shur.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I'm the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Public Safety.
Professor Fyfe, my understanding from your initial comments is that Great Britain does not have a national policy.
Prof. Nick Fyfe
That's right. Witness protection is still very much a local issue for individual police forces. They set up their own arrangements, rather than there being a national witness protection program.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Do those local agencies or communities with relocation plans pay for it themselves? Is it funded by those local authorities?
Prof. Nick Fyfe
Yes, it comes from the local police budget, so those local police forces have to find the resources to maintain those programs.
Again, one of the very real difficulties in the U.K. is the fact that this leads to a lot of duplication of effort. You see witnesses being moved from one part of the country to another, and rather than being handed over from one force to another, it's the force that is moving the witness that will establish them in the new community.
There's been a lot of discussion about whether the process could be made more efficient, through either a national program or regional programs within the U.K., rather than just relying on these local ad hoc arrangements.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
So when they're moved to the new community, is the new community made aware that they have somebody relocated and their past history?
Prof. Nick Fyfe
The police in the area where the person is being moved to would be informed that there was a protected witness and their family being moved into their community, yes.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Mr. Shur, if I understood you correctly, in the United States there's the national program in which you were involved, but then there are some state programs and there are some more local programs in addition to that—
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
That's true.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
—that might function similarly but totally differently at the same time.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
Generally on a more limited basis, but similar.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I'm assuming from your previous comments that the national program of which you spoke and that you were involved with is funded by the federal government.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
That's correct.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
So when you talked about some of these expenses.... If I understood you correctly also, a good number of the people who are in the witness protection programs are also in prison.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
Yes, that's correct.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
I guess we would call that protective custody here, but we wouldn't necessarily consider them in a witness protection program. But you do from your perspective.
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
Yes.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
As the federal government agency, when you relocate families, what kind of expense do you assume in that relocation?
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
It costs us about $40,000 to relocate an individual and $80,000 to $100,000, maybe $110,000, for a family. The program costs yearly between—I'm going to give you a wide number, because it has varied year to year—$25 million to $50 million for the federal program. We look at the costs; we look at the case in light of cost as a factor. In respect of states, by the way, and local law enforcement, we also offer to assist local law enforcement and the states in relocating their witnesses, if they would like to make use of the federal system. We might do it on a reimbursable basis of some parts of the costs.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
When the witness is relocated, or a family is relocated, do you continue to support the family on an economic basis for some length of time, or is there sort of a cutoff when you're expected to get back on your feet?
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
There is a cutoff expected. What happened many years ago...back in the late 1960s or so, I met with a representative of the United States Chamber of Commerce, who was very interested in our program, and he agreed to introduce me to Fortune 500 corporate executives around the country. We met in groups of four or five, and I asked them for help in employing our witnesses. I told them I would not tell them their real names, I would not tell them where they were really from, but I would tell them the real criminal record and I would tell them what skills they claimed to have, but I couldn't vouch for them. Then I pleaded for their help. We have almost 200 companies that agreed to help.
So that was one way of getting them employment. The object is to get them off subsistence as quickly as possible. We tell them we want them off in six months. That's really not practical, because they still have to testify and leave town and such. But generally, I'd say for a year to 16 months they would be on subsistence.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
As part of their relocation, do they continue to assume the debts, for instance, that they had in the community they left, the financial obligations?
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
There is a provision in our statute to handle debts. We expect them to pay their debts. If we find money they have before we relocate them, we suggest they pay those debts right away. If a creditor wishes to sue them after they have been relocated, our statute provides for the appointment of an intermediary. It would be a non-federal attorney, who would represent the creditor, and the non-federal attorney, who has had a background check, will be told where this person really lives and what his new name is, and he can then search for assets, file suit, do whatever would normally be done. You have kept the witness safe from the home area, anybody knowing who he is, and you've proceeded against his assets.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Just as one final question, in both situations—Professor Fyfe, in Great Britain, and in the United States, Mr. Shur—there's no criminal immunity to people who are relocated under the witness protection system, is there?
Senior Associate Director (retired), Office of Enforcement Operations, Criminal Division, United States Department of Justice, As an Individual
After relocation there's no immunity, just because you're in the witness protection program--not at all. In fact, they can't even work as informants without permission from the Office of Enforcement Operations.