Evidence of meeting #5 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was costs.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Sheila Fraser  Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
William Baker  Former Commissioner, Canada Firearms Centre, As an Individual
John Sims  Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice
Ian Bennett  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services
Peter Kasurak  Senior Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Wayne Ganim  Former Director General, Finance, Department of Justice, As an Individual
Beverley Holloway  Chief Operating Officer, Operations Directorate, Canada Firearms Centre

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to bring to order the fifth meeting of the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security.

I welcome today as witnesses the Auditor General of Canada, Mrs. Sheila Fraser; Mr. William Baker, the former commissioner of the Canada Firearms Centre; John Sims, Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General; and Ian Bennett, the acting assistant deputy minister of acquisitions; and also assisting is Peter Kasurak, senior principal.

I think we'll go ahead with the presentations. The usual format here is to allow all of you to make your presentations, and then we'll open it up for questions, with the official opposition having a round of seven minutes—as all the opposition parties have—and then we'll go to five-minute rounds after the government has had its seven-minute round.

And without further ado, Mrs. Fraser, please.

3:35 p.m.

Sheila Fraser Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We thank you for inviting us to discuss our audit of the Canada Firearms Centre.

As you mentioned, I'm accompanied today by Peter Kasurak, senior principal of the public safety team responsible for this audit.

Let me take this opportunity to provide members with an overview of our findings. This audit was a follow-up to our 2002 audit of the cost of the Canadian firearms program. We were unable to complete our 2002 audit because the financial information available was unreliable and did not fairly represent the net costs of the program. This year we are able to report that the centre has made good progress in addressing our findings, with one exception, which I will discuss later. The Canada Firearms Centre has adequate financial reports, and it has developed a reasonable method of apportioning costs between licensing and registration activities.

The Firearms Program has been substantially reorganized since our 2002 audit. When the new management team took over in May 2003, not only did they have to establish all of the functions of a separate agency, they also had to deal with existing problems.

The new team has handled a large volume of licence applications, firearms registrations and transfers. It has dealt with operational issues such as spreading out the timing of licence renewals, consolidating the application processing site, and establishing the infrastructure necessary for a stand-alone department. The team has also improved contracting practices, and the number of contracts that have “red flags” indicating non-compliance with regulations has dropped significantly since 2001-2002.

However, we have also found some problems that have yet to be addressed. The most important of these are as follows.

Firstly, the program still lacks performance targets or a definition of how program activities will result in the desired outcomes for public safety. Errors have been made in reports to Parliament overstating the degree to which service standards have been met.

Secondly, the quality of the information in the registry still has significant inaccuracies in part due to information carried over from the Restricted Weapons Registration System as well as the 2002 decision to allow applicants to describe their own weapons without verification. We also found a system of volunteer verifiers to be generally weak.

Lastly, there are continuing concerns with the new information system called CFIS II. These concerns start with the basis for the initial decision to build a system, the lack of detailed requirements, and the subsequent delays and cost overruns. We report that the system has tripled in cost to about $90 million to date, including about $30 million in avoidable delay costs. At the time of the audit, the system had not been tested or declared operational.

I would encourage the committee to press for correction of these problems, no matter what form the Firearms Program may take in the future.

However, the most important finding from my perspective, and the object of our additional report, is how the costs of CFIS II were accounted for and how they were then reported to Parliament.

In fiscal 2002-03, the Department of Justice did not record liabilities of $39 million incurred in the development of CFIS II, as they should have. This error had two effects. The first was that Parliament was not told that the program had actually exceeded the limit stated by the then Minister of Justice in the House. Secondly, it also meant that the new Firearms Centre management team had to deal with an unexpected $39 million expense in 2003-04.

During 2003-04, the centre—which had then become a separate department—realized that it was likely to exceed the amounts appropriated by Parliament because of the prior year's accounting error and because of additional unexpected increases in the costs of CFIS II. Although the centre initially recommended that additional funds be requested from Parliament through supplementary estimates, senior officials at the Treasury Board Secretariat and Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness Canada sought an accounting presentation that would avoid reporting certain costs against that year's appropriation. Acting on their advice and on a legal opinion obtained by Public Safety, the centre incorrectly decided that the CFIS II liabilities of $21.8 million at March 31, 2004, did not need to be recorded against the centre's voted appropriation. Again, the result was that Parliament was not informed that the centre had in fact exceeded its appropriation and “blown its vote”.

Our report analyzes each argument made by officials to justify their decision not to report these costs against the centre's vote and concludes that officials erred and government accounting policy was not followed. In particular, the argument that the Treasury Board had not approved the contract and, therefore, that the liability did not have to be recorded in the year in which it occurred is troubling. I am very concerned about any possible adoption of an accounting policy that would allow the government to move the recording of expenditures from one year to the next, based only on the timing of their approval by the Treasury Board. This is not in accordance with recognized accounting principles, nor with current policy.

These accounting errors meant that Parliament was not properly informed of the true costs of CFIS II on a timely basis. We also note that not seeking proper authority for supplementary funds where there was a reasonable likelihood that an appropriation would be exceeded could be interpreted as a breach of the Standing Orders of the House of Commons. Failure to fully account to Parliament for expenditures against a vote could also be viewed as an infringement on the privileges of the House of Commons.

Only the House itself can determine whether such a breach has occurred.

Mr. Chair, that concludes our opening statement, and we would be pleased to answer any questions that committee members may have.

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you, Mrs. Fraser. I appreciated that.

Mr. Baker, do you have a presentation as well?

3:40 p.m.

William Baker Former Commissioner, Canada Firearms Centre, As an Individual

Yes, Mr. Chair.

I'll keep my opening remarks very brief, and would simply say that we're pleased to be here today to respond to questions.

I would like to highlight that the government has accepted the recommendations of the Auditor General on all of the matters that have been raised, and has undertaken to follow through and implement a number of initiatives.

I would also like to point out, as the Auditor General has done in her report, that there have been some significant improvements made to the management of the Canada Firearms Centre over the last number of years, thanks to the hard work of the people who continue to work there today.

Because there's limited room at the table, I would like to point out, Mr. Chair, that I have with me today three of my colleagues from the Canada Firearms Centre: John Brunet, the chief financial officer; Beverley Holloway, the chief operating officer;

Mr. Denis Bilodeau, our chief counsel,

our Justice lawyer working at the Firearms Centre.

We'd be pleased to take your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much.

Mr. Sims, I don't think you had a statement.

3:40 p.m.

John Sims Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice

No, I don't, but thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I am pleased to be here, as are my colleagues. I'm accompanied by one colleague, who I'd like to introduce, Mr. Wayne Ganim, who was the chief financial officer in the Department of Justice at the material time.

I look forward to the questions to follow. Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you.

Mr. Bennett, you had a brief presentation, I believe.

May 31st, 2006 / 3:40 p.m.

Ian Bennett Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Acquisitions Branch, Department of Public Works and Government Services

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for providing me this opportunity to discuss federal contracting services in relation to chapter 4 of the Auditor General's May 2006 report.

Mr. Chair, today I'm accompanied by two of the senior directors within the acquisitions branch of Public Works and Government Services, Mr. George Butts and Mr. Scott Leslie. Mr. Leslie has been directly involved in managing the contracts around the Firearms Centre.

To deliver the best value procurement services, Public Works and Government Services Canada works as a strategic partner with our customer departments. We help them throughout the procurement process from defining requirements and procurement approaches; managing the bidding process; and supporting them in insuring accountability throughout the contract.

Public Works and Government Services has supported the Canada Firearms Centre since its inception through the provision of contracting services, including those related to information technology. The department has issued two principal contracts, both competitively awarded, to support the Canadian firearms information systems, referred to as CFIS I and CFIS II. These contracts are highlighted in chapter 4 of the Auditor General's report.

Managing these two CFIS contracts in an uncertain operating and legislative environment has proven to be a significant challenge. Numerous changes to both contracts have been required over the years to accommodate these evolving realities. We do acknowledge, however, that lessons learned from our experience with CFIS I could have been better applied to the CFIS II procurement, and this has proven to be a particular challenge.

Many of the assumptions upon which it was based have had to be adjusted as the environment, particularly firearms legislation, changed. With the assistance of third party analysis, Public Works and Government Services, the Canada Firearms Centre, and the CFIS II contractor have recently agreed to halt work to ensure that no further expenses are being incurred while we are assessing the situation.

The Auditor General cited cases that dated from 1997 to 2004 where the Firearms Centre retained a number of contractors for several years, using Public Works and Government Services database, referred to as Informatics Professional Services, a tool that allows federal departments to search for consultants based on skills and experience. The Auditor General reports that in many cases searches of the IPS database would yield only one name, that of the incumbent contractor. Public Works concurs that these contracts should not have been justified as competitive, and we note that the centre ceased this practice in 2004.

The Auditor General recommends that Public Works review how client departments use its contracting tools and be able to provide assurance that they are not being used to circumvent contracting policies or procedures.

We take the Auditor General's recommendation very seriously and are taking corrective measures to address the issues highlighted in the chapter. Such measures include training users on accountabilities, the policies, and processes; increased monitoring and reporting of usage; and where appropriate, restricting use of these tools. As of December last year, PWGSC has improved and expanded the professional services online database to allow better monitoring of the department's usage.

In conclusion, we recognize that we must continue to find ways to further improve our services to customer organizations while continuing to exercise a vigorous check and balance in the interests of Canadians. Public Works is in the midst of transforming the way we do business. We are seeking innovative ways to deliver services smarter, faster, and at reduced cost to improve how the Government of Canada does business. We are committed to fair, open, and transparent competitive procurement strategies that meet the government's needs while ensuring equal access to business that will pass the test of public scrutiny.

Thank you for this. I will be pleased to answer your questions.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you, Mr. Bennett, and thank you to all the witnesses this afternoon. I have always had a special interest in this area and would be itching to ask many questions, but I will try not to abuse my position as chair.

Mr. Wappel, I believe you have some questions, to begin.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Yes, thank you.

Indeed, Mr. Chairman, you have a long record of interest in this matter. I must say, in a non-partisan way you've certainly done a lot of digging over the years and brought up a lot of things.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming. I understand this is more or less round two, because you were before the public accounts committee yesterday on the same subject matter. I'll try not to be too repetitive.

Mr. Baker, can I start with you, sir? My notes say you're the former commissioner of the Canada Firearms Centre. Congratulations. I presume you're here because you were in that capacity at the time of the two accounting errors. Is that the idea?

3:45 p.m.

Former Commissioner, Canada Firearms Centre, As an Individual

William Baker

I am the former commissioner, for the last two weeks.

I was appointed the CEO of the Firearms Centre in February 2003 and was not effectively involved in the 2002-03 decision. I was certainly involved in the 2003-04 accounting decision. That is the first set of books that would have been under my control.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

My notes indicate that the Department of Justice, responsible for CFC at the time, failed to report $39 million in estimated development costs for CFIS II in 2002-03—the first accounting error. You were not there at that time?

3:45 p.m.

Former Commissioner, Canada Firearms Centre, As an Individual

William Baker

I had just arrived at the very end of that fiscal year. The management of the contract and the finances were with the Department of Justice.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

And who did that?

3:45 p.m.

Former Commissioner, Canada Firearms Centre, As an Individual

William Baker

I would refer that to my colleague Mr. Sims.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Mr. Sims, can you help us out? Who was in charge at that time?

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice

John Sims

I am the current Deputy Minister of Justice. The Department of Justice was responsible for the program in 2002-03.

What happened in that year was that officials acting in good faith made a mistake in interpreting the rules that apply to dealing with this expense. They actually believed it would have been wrong to book those expenses at that time, primarily because the system was not ready for delivery. As it was understood, looking at the rules at that time, unless the goods had been delivered and unless there was an amount actually owing at that moment under a contract, the official in question read the rules as saying he ought not to book the amount.

We have since understood—

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Excuse me. The official in question—who was it?

3:45 p.m.

Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice

John Sims

It was the chief financial officer, Mr. Ganim, who is with me today.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

All right. Was his decision, then, based on this legal opinion that the Auditor General had said, or was it based on some other information?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice

John Sims

Mr. Chairman, the decision in 2002-03 was not based on a legal opinion; it was based on a reading of what the rules called for. I think it's clear from what the Auditor General has been saying this week that it's seen as a mistake. We acknowledge it was a mistake.

The context was a complicated one at the time. There were signs that the computer contract in question was starting to go off the rails. There were cost overruns starting to be noted; the vendor was asking for a six-month extension on a nine-month contract; the contract had not passed an initial verification that was required. And so the focus was on managing a very difficult contract. Advice was being sought from outside consultants on what to do with this.

In this context—no deliverable, and with the system not ready for legal or physical acceptance—Mr. Ganim understood the rules to say he ought not to pay any money out for the system that year, 2002-03. The mistake was in saying, if I don't pay money out, I don't book it.

We accept what the Auditor General has said: that was wrong; there ought to have been an amount set aside notionally for it in 2002-03.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

Was all of what you've just told us discussed with the minister of the day?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice

John Sims

I don't believe so, Mr. Chairman.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Tom Wappel Liberal Scarborough Southwest, ON

And have you done reasonable inquiries to determine that's the case?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister and Deputy Attorney General, Department of Justice

John Sims

Mr. Chairman, the decision was taken without consulting the minister. This was a management decision by officials. The amount that was in everybody's mind in 2002-03 was $10 million, not $39 million. It was $10 million because the contract was for about $32 million, payable in $10 million chunks over three successive years. That was the amount that appeared in supplementary estimates repeatedly. That was the amount that ended up being put into the main estimates.

As I say, the focus was on managing this contract, and the minister was not brought into the decision to book or not book.