Public Safety Committee on May 31st, 2006

[Sheila Fraser]

In our report, we haven't gone so far as to list specific benchmarks. We recognize that it is difficult to devise benchmarks to measure a contribution to public safety. I said during a parliamentary hearing that this could show up, for instance, as greater satisfaction or sense of usefulness as reported by the police force. Do the users find the thing useful? Are they using it? Are there any practical examples showing how useful it was? This kind of information can show whether a program is efficient or not.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I've noticed that there's nothing more difficult to predict in government than computer costs. It is even more difficult than predicting legal costs, and that is saying quite a bit. I know that initially, in this profession, people did not have any training and the private sector paid computer experts quite substantial salaries that the government had trouble matching. Could you tell us about how to set up good processes for calling for tenders for computer services and to ensure that we have a reasonable idea of the costs involved before we commit ourselves?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you. That will be the final question from Mr. Ménard.

Go ahead, you may answer.

[Sheila Fraser]

I would just say that we have an audit underway on systems being developed. In this audit, we are reviewing the challenge process and the follow-up process to ensure that the costs have been properly considered and that the process is adequate. We expect to report in November of this year. Perhaps I will have some better answers to Mr. Ménard's questions this fall.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mrs. Fraser, just as a follow-up, I need clarification on what he asked. Is there any evidence that there was a public safety improvement? Have you done anything in that area? It wasn't clear from my answer that there's been an improvement, or that there's an evaluation in that area where there's evidence that there have been public safety improvements.

[Sheila Fraser]

No, that's right. The question was about performance indicators, and one of the points that we note here is that there aren't performance indicators about the effectiveness of the program. We recognized that to try to have an indicator of public safety is very difficult, because how do you make the link and how can you attribute the results of the registry and the program to public safety? But there can be more immediate indicators that could be used. I was saying that perhaps examples of the registry's use by police forces could be given. Do they find it useful? That kind of information could at least begin the path to developing performance indicators.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Comartin, for seven minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had the advantage of being at the public accounts committee yesterday, so I've been through this with a much larger number of witnesses yesterday. The big issue that came through there was this legal opinion. You've heard some reference to it by Mr. Sims. It wasn't available to us yesterday; it was in translation.

I'm just wondering, Mr. Sims, if it is it available.

[John Sims]

Mr. Chairman, the opinion has been translated. The reliability of the translation was being checked. I did not check, before coming into this room today, if it's been done. It was a lengthy opinion and it should just about be ready, I think. So I would think it's becoming available.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Monsieur, the opinion is actually 13 to 14 pages long, so it is a fairly lengthy one.

In addition to having some of the people here today, we had somebody from the Comptroller General's office, and there was some significant disagreement over the generally accepted accounting practices that should have been applied here. Mrs. Fraser took, as she has in her report, a very strong position that in fact the legal opinion should not have carried the weight that it did. But in terms of this committee drawing any conclusions, I think it comes down to the fact that we need to see that opinion and to assess it in our own way.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Just to interrupt, Mr. Sims, can you provide that to the clerk of the committee as soon as it becomes available, so that the members of this committee can examine it?

[John Sims]

Mr. Chairman, it's my understanding that the Deputy Comptroller General made the commitment yesterday that the Treasury Board would release the opinion, so I believe the opinion will be released through the Treasury Board. It can certainly be made available to this committee as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Comartin.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Just in that regard, Mr. Chair, he did waive any claim to solicitor-client privilege at that time, and so the justice department is prepared to release it.

Ms. Fraser, in terms of one of the questions that Mr. Ménard raised, I'm not sure we got an answer. At any time in the investigation of the audits that you've done, have you found any criminality or funds being misappropriated?

[Sheila Fraser]

With the work we have completed in doing this report, we have not, or we would obviously have reported such. What I indicated in my previous response is that we are still continuing audits of certain contracts, which we were not able to complete in time to publish this report. That work is ongoing, and should we find anything of significance, we will obviously bring it back in a report to Parliament. I would hope we would have it in our November report, if there is anything.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Evidence has come out, either in front of the Gomery commission or in front of Mr. Guité's trial, that there was a contract let in the range of $300,000 to $400,000. It wasn't clear if those funds flowed out of this budget or if those moneys were from some other source.

[Sheila Fraser]

That contract came out of the funds in the sponsorship program. It was actually included in our audit of the sponsorship program, but we could not discuss it at that point because it was subject to review by the police authorities and to criminal proceedings. To the best of my knowledge, it did not come out of the budget of the firearms program, but rather out of the sponsorship program.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Chair, how much more time do I have?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have three minutes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Mr. Baker, with regard to another question of Mr. Ménard's—it's something that's bothered me for some time, and the chairman has certainly been, I'll say, guilty of doing some of this—we've heard the figure bandied about repeatedly in the media that the program had cost $2 billion. Ms. Fraser's report, of course, showed that it was somewhat less than $1 billion.

Is there any way of estimating how much we would have spent had we not introduced the long gun registry, if we had simply gone with the existing programs of licensing and the registration of restricted weapons and handguns?

[William Baker]

Mr. Chair, I certainly couldn't be precise with that. The only thing I could offer for the committee's consideration is that I recall about three years ago a representative of the Canadian Professional Police Association indicated that the previous firearms acquisition certificate regime—the costs of which, as you know, were distributed across the country with different police forces—cost, he estimated on behalf of the association, around $30 million per year.

It would be very difficult to verify the veracity of that estimate. All you can do is look at the total costs since the implementation of the Firearms Act. Of course, some of those costs replace costs that would been incurred previously to administer the old regime, but I don't believe anyone has attempted to analyze the incremental costs.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Can you help us with that, Ms. Fraser?

[Sheila Fraser]

No. I have no information on that.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Going at it from the reverse, if as is being proposed by this government we dismantle the long gun registry, leaving everything else intact, of the proposed $72 million that will be spent this year, how much would we save?

[William Baker]

I can't tell you exactly on long gun registration. I can say with certainty that for the year just completed, 2005-06, of the $82.3 million budgeted for the Canada Firearms Centre approximately $15 million was for registration-related activities. That would be registration of all firearms, long guns as well as prohibited firearms and hand guns, and the access to that database by police.

Anything that's moved out of that would obviously yield some saving, but we should keep in mind that because there's an integrated information system that supports the registration of firearms, the incremental saving would probably end up being less than one might expect on a per unit basis.