Public Safety Committee on June 14th, 2007

[Allan Kagedan]

Yes.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Are there any exceptions to that? Are they allowed to make exceptions to that printed list?

[Allan Kagedan]

There's no provision in the exemption for exceptions in the sense of not respecting the regulation. So there is no provision.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

But the regulation has, in terminology, a generally accepted government-issued document.

[Allan Kagedan]

We list them on the Internet.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Exclusively?

[Allan Kagedan]

Well, people have to know what's expected. If people don't know what's expected, that's where you get confusion. So what we have done is place that list on the Internet.

We are hearing from different locations in Canada. We are reviewing and updating as needed the type of ID that's possible. We're trying to explain to people and give people a heads-up on what they need. That's public, and that's published.

We're publicizing the need for ID through these multiple means. We'll be at airports, in newspapers, on radio, on travel sites, on the Internet, and again, focused on the limited but important group of people who are travelling between two Canadian cities. It's not relevant to people going to the States or travelling internationally.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do I still have time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have one more minute.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

If I look at the regulation, it says a government-issued or -authorized document, and I have one and my child has one that is not on that list that you've given to the people at the airport.

I'm not clear, Mr. Kagedan. You're not being helpful, quite frankly. I'm not sure if you don't understand my question, but I'm not clear on this. Is there an absolute list with 10 items: birth certificate, health card, and so on?

[Allan Kagedan]

Yes, there is.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Is there an absolute number? If I come with some other government-issued document that certifies who I am, you will not accept that?

[Allan Kagedan]

Again, the air carrier makes the decision. There is discretion on that basis. But what I would say to you is that we have tried to put all the relevant government ID out there so that there is no confusion. But if it's valid government ID and for some reason it escaped our notice, then, with valid government ID, the air carrier could exercise the discretion to let you onto the plane. There's no question there.

[Joe Comartin, NDP, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

So the staff person there will make that decision.

[Allan Kagedan]

If it's valid government ID, there could be some discretion, but we have taken it as a matter of air carriers having come to us saying, “Can you please be a little clearer? What is it?” We could have left it at “valid government-issued ID”, but in order to be helpful for people, people are asking us, “Can you please specify?” So that's what we've done.

If it's valid government-issued ID, then it's valid. That's what the regulation says.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. Do you have that list with you, the 10 items or whatever?

[Allan Kagedan]

I don't have it with me at this time. As I say, it is on the Internet at that website. As we hear from different parts of Canada where there are some different sorts of ID, we are working with all areas to upload valid ID so that people are clear.

People would like clarity. They would prefer that. If it's valid government-issued ID, that's the regulation, and that is what is supreme in this sense.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. Hawn, please.

Do you have a point of order?

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

I don't think it's too much trouble to get someone to go to the website and print out the list so that we can know what we're talking about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

The list of the ten pieces of ID? We'll check into that.

Mr. Hawn, please.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for being here.

This all started, of course, many years ago. Has the direction the department has received changed at all from government to government, or is it pretty much following the direction it was given in the first place?

[Allan Kagedan]

Of course the program has evolved as we have gone along. The basic direction was there in the Public Safety Act. The Public Safety Act, section 4.81, gives the Minister of Transport—that's why it's Transport and not the Ministry of Public Safety, that was the decision of the day—the authority to specify individuals who pose a threat to aviation security.

It's built on that basis, but as we've evolved we have criteria that are public, we have a reconsideration office, and we have the 7/24 office. We've done all these things to try to keep the program as efficient and effective as possible.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I just wanted to make sure that the way we're framing the discussion is that it's not a political discussion but an operational and procedural discussion more than anything else, and there are lots of legitimate questions.

You probably can't answer this, but how many people are on the no-fly list?

[Allan Kagedan]

You're right, I can't, but—

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Is it a big number or a little number?