Public Safety Committee on June 14th, 2007

[Allan Kagedan]

—again, the number is determined by the focus that we're putting on it, and that limits the number significantly.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

We talked about where that information comes from. You have the advisory group, who are RCMP, CSIS, and all these folks. On the personal information that you get to determine who is on the no-fly list, when the advisory group meets, the RCMP guy and the CSIS lady come armed with that personal information, and the advisory group sits and says, yes, these guys are on the list and these guys aren't. Is that the way it works?

[Allan Kagedan]

Yes, that is how it goes, but in order to protect the privacy of those individuals, we strictly limit the number of people in that room and who is allowed in that room. You have to be very careful in those matters, both for security and privacy. You strictly limit who is in that room and who gets to participate in this, because we're concerned about the privacy of those individuals as well.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Have you made any projections on false positives and how many you might expect? Has there been any crystal-balling on that?

[Allan Kagedan]

Our projections suggest a very low number of false positives for the reasons I've stated, and false positives in the sense of people denied boarding falsely. I will tell you it would be extremely unlikely in the situation we're talking about for someone to have the same name, gender, date of birth, passport number, home address, home phone number, and the like as someone else. If they have all that, I think it's rather unlikely. As the data points increase, the chance of a mistake diminishes proportionately. We've also taken action by focusing the list to reduce the number of name matches.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

If you have an adult who is on the no-fly list and he or she shows up with the family, are they automatically included with that member in terms of being denied?

[Allan Kagedan]

Certainly not, because we're looking at individuals. We're not looking at groups, we're not looking at families; we're looking at individuals and actions they have decided to take. It's their behaviour that leads us to this conclusion. Now, if a family member is stopped, the family might say they're not going forward and so on, but no, it's the individual who has made certain decisions of their own. Unfortunately, we would have to make some decisions of our own.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Talking about the information being available, it seems to me that it ought to be on all the airline websites and with every travel agent when they're making a booking. Is that there? Have they been instructed to supply the information about what they're going to need? Does everybody who buys a ticket get told that?

[Allan Kagedan]

Again, we are working with air carriers, and air carriers are completely aware of this. The government is taking its own action to alert people to the requirements. Again, it's only an issue when it comes to flights within Canada. The air carriers and travel agents around Canada have of course known about this for months and they've been telling people. Unfortunately, sometimes the information they give is less than exact.

We are not requiring photo ID. That is not a requirement of the program. It can be a non-photo ID. That was done very deliberately to accommodate people. What we're seeing is that some people tend to exaggerate the requirements rather than move in the other direction, but the program as it is set out is for photo or non-photo ID with the proviso that it's government issued. We want a responsible issuing authority for that document.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

You offered it before, so I'll ask you the question, why 12?

[Allan Kagedan]

Why 12? There are a couple of reasons. This was not a number picked out of the sky; 12 plays a role in our Criminal Code. What we have is a distinction between individuals who are under 12 or over 12 in terms of their responsibility for actions taken. That is a Criminal Code number.

We also see that tragically—and this is a tragedy of enormous proportions—internationally, young individuals get involved in wars. They're known as child soldiers. This is a serious situation the United Nations is looking at.

This program is an international program. These flights go to and from many countries. That's a consideration as well.

There is a practical consideration from an air carrier point of view. How do you know how old someone is? Twelve is a bit of a distinguishing mark. Once kids are 13, 14, 15, are they 16, 17, 18? Depending on their size and so on, it's hard to distinguish. You have to start somewhere. Tragically, we've even had media reports within Canada of gangs and so on getting involved with kids, and teenagers getting involved with guns, so that's why the number was chosen.

We understand it poses a challenge for some people travelling within Canada, and that's why the exemption was issued for the summer. We're also taking action to address it.

That is where the number came from.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

In the unlikely event...and I agree there is a false positive when somebody is denied boarding. Did I hear correctly that it's a 30-day process to change that, or to correct it?

[Linda Savoie]

That's correct. We're estimating our service standard is going to be 30 days. We're hoping to make it quicker where possible, but if an independent review needs to be done of the criteria for having placed that person there, we reasonably expect it will take 30 days.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Does the advisory group get involved in that again, or are they not part of that process?

[Linda Savoie]

No, this is the office of reconsideration, so we will review the recommendation the advisory group had given to the minister in the first place to put that person on the list. We will review their facts for making the decision, etc.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Your office is the sole adjudicator of that, is it?

[Linda Savoie]

We review and we make a recommendation to the minister about whether the decision appears to have been correct in the first place and should stand, or whether the minister should advise his advisory body to review it extensively, to reassess.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you.

That's fine. I think I'm probably out of time anyway.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have a few seconds left.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

It's okay.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

I have read that list, and we'll try to get a printed copy for you, Mr. Chan. It's quite extensive. It's more than 10 items.

We're going to go to the opposition side. Mr. Cullen, please.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, Mr. Kagedan, and Ms. Savoie.

I just have five minutes, so I'd appreciate it if you can keep your answers as succinct as possible.

We need a bit of a reality check. This list won't be perfect. The other reality is that this list will not solve the challenges of aviation security in Canada forever.

I have two examples: an Air Canada flight into Atlanta, Georgia, or an Air France flight from Charles de Gaulle International Airport into Toronto. What list, in the absence of a passenger protect list in Canada, would they use as a tool or what list would they be required and mandated to use?

[Allan Kagedan]

Thank you.

There is no perfection in anything, and certainly in security nothing solves everything. If only that weren't true.

If there were a flight from Toronto to Atlanta, then they are flying to the U.S., and that flight would be subject to U.S. requirements. That's how aviation works. If there were a flight from Paris to Toronto, that flight would be subject to French requirements and Canadian requirements. How it works in aviation is that we are able to put requirements on flights coming to us and leaving us. It is the same with the U.S. and with every other country.

[Roy Cullen, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

In the interests of time, I'm asking you in practical terms what that would mean today in the absence of a Canadian passenger protect list for those two flights.

[Allan Kagedan]

I'm not sure I understand the question.