Evidence of meeting #18 for Public Safety and National Security in the 39th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Do you have any statistics on the number of deaths caused by tasers in 2002?
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Well, how many deaths were there in the RCMP? I think that reference is made regularly to tasers. I imagine you have...
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Were there any deaths resulting from the use of tasers by RCMP officers in 2002?
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Are there any studies establishing the cause of death following the use of a taser?
Sgt Richard Groulx
For every death occurring in the process of an arrest, whether a conductive energy weapon was used or not, autopsies, and coroners' medical reports, have demonstrated that the cause of death was linked to an overdose. No report has found that the conductive energy weapon was directly linked to the cause of death.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
So if I've understood you correctly, an individual with excited delirium syndrome may have used drugs. And it is the police officers' reflex, in such cases, to use tasers. So you're saying that when a person takes drugs and dies following the use of a CEW, autopsy results point to an overdose as being the cause of death. Is that correct?
Sgt Richard Groulx
No, not at all. When police officers appear at the scene of a crime, they must assess the risk. They respond, based on this assessment, with the tools at their disposal. And they don't always use conductive energy weapons. Sometimes they use self-defence techniques, and sometimes they use pepper spray. And if that doesn't work, they use the nightstick. And when it doesn't work, they use conductive energy weapons. Once again, you need to understand that conductive energy weapons enable you to control the client, when they work. Shortly after deployment, the fight ends and the client is handcuffed.
There have been incidents, not only in Canada but elsewhere in the world. A client did have a heart attack once afterwards. But what was the heart attack due to? To date, according to reports and based on an assessment of the various situations, the conductive energy weapon, when used, has not been associated with the onset of a heart attack.
Sgt Richard Groulx
I would like to add something. We have the report from the Canadian Police Research Centre. When you have to deal with someone who is in a state of agitated delirium, you know that you're dealing with a medical emergency. You also know that if you can minimize the time it takes to control the individual, you are increasing that individual's chances of survival. So an officer would ask himself how he could control the person as quickly as possible in order to give this person the greatest chance of survival. If the officer tries to restrain the individual with his bare hands, the situation might be brought under control in three, five or seven minutes, but there is also a risk that the situation might escalate. Don't forget that the officer carries a gun, and it's impossible to say what will happen.
Further, some people just don't react when sprayed with pepper spray and they might put up even more of a fight. This approach does not minimize the length of the intervention. The same thing holds true with regard to the baton. When you are dealing with someone who is in a state of agitated delirium, this person often does not feel or perceive pain. So the baton is not the way to go. Don't forget that the objective of the officer is always to control...
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
I do not mean to interrupt you, but you are giving us so many details and I have other questions for you.
Conservative
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
Fine.
Has the use of tasers increased year after year, that is between 2002 and 2007? Do you have any statistics which show, for instance, that tasers were used 50 times in 2002 and 150 times in 2007?
Sgt Richard Groulx
We have the statistics. I believe it varies between 1,000, 1,200 and 1,300 times per year until now.
Bloc
Robert Vincent Bloc Shefford, QC
So that's between 1,000 and 1,300 times a year since 2002, but has taser use increased over time?
Insp Troy Lightfoot
Originally there weren't as many CEWs available to the officers, so in the first year there would have been diminished use compared to the following years. However, after a full procurement and rollout of the CEW, of course we'd see more CEW uses because there would be more CEWs. We now know that in the last two to three years we've had a consistent average of approximately 1,000 uses per year.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
I'll just cut to the chase. We're here because of the Dziekanski affair, but we can't talk about it because we know it's under investigation.
Most of my questions will be for Mr. Lawrence, and then Assistant Commissioner LaFosse.
Mr. Lawrence, in your years of experience as a police officer and from your research, were there any deaths, whether by natural causes or of persons in custody, where after the post-mortems and investigations the causes could not be determined scientifically?
Instructor, Ontario Police College
There were some where the causes were undetermined.
