Evidence of meeting #39 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was corrections.
A recording is available from Parliament.
1:05 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
If you could leave this committee with one thing each that we could do to improve mental health provision in prisons, one thing for each of you, what would that be?
1:05 p.m.
Physician, As an Individual
I think a very realistic approach to the drug addiction problem. There's a big overlap between mental illness and drug addiction; you can't separate the two.
We see a lot of schizophrenics who come in off the street, who have been living on the street, who are HIV positive, hepatitis C positive, because they've got into drugs. There's a big overlap here. There's not a great deal of attempt being made to address the addiction illness. Addition is a crime, as far as Corrections is concerned. It is in fact an illness, in the same way alcoholism is an illness. I think the approach to addiction needs to be switched a bit, to address that fact.
1:05 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I would say if you have the external accountability, which triggers people being moved into the community so that they can have the services provided in the community and an array of options--from those who aren't a risk to the public to those who are acutely psychotic who may need a very intensive, secure forensic setting--to have those services provided in a community context; i.e., being governed by the mental health system, not by the corrections system.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you very much.
Mr. Rathgeber, please, for seven minutes.
1:05 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to the witnesses for your interesting presentations.
Dr. Ford, I listened to your opening remarks quite carefully. In response to Mr. Davies' last question, you indicated, and I certainly agree, that the spread of infectious diseases—HIV and hepatitis C—are a problem within our prison system. Your closing statement and your opening remarks say it's a problem that needs to be addressed. In response to Mr. Davies' question, you said “We need a realistic approach to drug addiction.” I'm sorry, sir, I don't know what that means. You've identified the problem. What is the solution, in your view?
1:10 p.m.
Physician, As an Individual
There are a number of solutions. Nobody has an easy answer to drug addiction. It's a major problem for society that we spend a lot of time trying very hard not to address, because it is a big problem to resolve. But it needs to be recognized that drug addition is an illness, so addicts need to be put into proper programs to try to prevent use. I think that one has to accept that use is going to occur, and clearly it is occurring in the prisons. People are injecting in very unhealthy circumstances. We need to address that.
Europeans have addressed that with needle exchange schemes in prisons, and it's very interesting that most European countries are now adopting this. There's a pilot scheme in Russia. Iran has a needle exchange scheme. Kazakhstan has a needle exchange scheme. Even Moldova, which most people haven't heard of, has a needle exchange scheme in their prisons. There is no English-speaking country in the world that has a needle exchange scheme in its prisons, even though we have major drug problems.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Am I to assume from that answer that you are advocating for a state-sponsored needle exchange program in federal prisons?
1:10 p.m.
Physician, As an Individual
Yes. This is an official position of the Canadian Medical Association, and also the Ontario Medical Association.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
You understand the dilemma there. It is against the law to consume or possess substances that are on schedule A of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. You understand that.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
The people who are in the federal prison system are there because they've been convicted of violating a serious offence, and part of their rehabilitation, presumably, is to learn respect for the law, the Criminal Code, and the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. So how does Corrections Canada possibly resolve the dilemma by sanctioning, if not enabling, a violation of the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act?
1:10 p.m.
Physician, As an Individual
They go and look at the European models, where every prisoner coming into prison is supplied with a needle and syringe, which is put on the wall of the cell. Drug use is still illegal, but if it occurs, it's going to occur without that needle and syringe being shared with 15 other people. It also removes the hazards to the guards, who at the moment are at risk of getting stuck when they do cell searches. It is possible to do it; it does happen in many jurisdictions, and it works.
The other thing that is always raised in objection is that these needles and syringes will be used as weapons, and that has not occurred in the European system.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I understand that, but you also understand the dilemma, the dilemma that it puts the state in when it's sanctioning, if not enabling, a violation of its own law.
1:10 p.m.
Physician, As an Individual
The state would not be sanctioning drug use. Drug use would still be illegal in the prison. The state, on the street, issues free, clean needles and syringes to drug addicts.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
1:10 p.m.
Physician, As an Individual
This government does. It's run by provincial authorities. The City of Kingston, for instance, exchanges 250,000 needles and syringes a year. That is legal, but the use of the drugs and the possession of the drugs is not legal. This has to be a bit of a dilemma, but it's a public health issue.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
You referred to a European model. Tell me, Doctor, does the syringe and the needle on the shelf in the prisoner's cell have any other use, any other possible use, besides intravenous drug injection?
1:10 p.m.
Physician, As an Individual
No, nor does the bleach that Corrections already issues to prisoners.
1:10 p.m.
Conservative
Brent Rathgeber Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Ms. Pate, you follow women's corrections issues very closely, and I appreciate your work and your expertise. So you'd be familiar with the 1996 report of Justice Arthur with respect to certain events at the Prison for Women in Kingston, and the subsequent 2003 Canadian Human Rights Commission report, Protecting Their Rights: A Systematic Review of Human Rights in the Correctional Services for Federally Sentenced Women. In both those reports, which of course by those years, 2003 and 1996, you will appreciate had a different government running the corrections system, how many of those 19 recommendations have been implemented?
1:10 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Corrections would indicate that most of them have been, and I would say that in part, many of them have been. There's a deputy commissioner for women, but with none of the other recommendations that went with that position. It depends on which recommendation you're talking about.
What's important for you to know is that the 1990 report of the task force on federally sentenced women, against which each of those has been measured--it was a Conservative government that implemented that task force--promoted actually very much a decarceral model. In fact, it promoted minimum security settings across the country for women. I would suggest that was a very wise recommendation. It was derailed because of the mix of women into men's, so the minute there was an escape, women running away and being caught within ten blocks, there was a decision to put massive security around. The perception was that somehow they were going to pose a risk, which never came to pass in those cases, or in others. Nevertheless, because there have been some high-profile incidents of men escaping, that was used to justify this.
I think what Louise Arbour said was the recommendations that were made in 1990 talked about women's corrections being a flagship for corrections as a whole, being the place where you can actually make some really progressive changes that don't increase risk to public safety at all, and that hasn't been followed. I would urge you to very much look at those and examine the possibility, because with this population you could be doing that. In fact, it's a great missed opportunity to not do that.
The heads of corrections all across the country, federal, provincial, and territorial, in the mid-nineties had a strong push for a decarceration strategy, which never got implemented as well. That was supported, as I understand it, by all parties.
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
1:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Thank you very much for coming before the committee.
Unfortunately, we are very pressed for time. We are going to suspend for less than a minute, turn the television cameras off, and go into clause-by-clause of our bill.
Thank you again.
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz
Let's reconvene.
We're doing clause-by-clause of Bill C-34, an act to amend the Criminal Code and other acts.
Again, we welcome as advisors, as witnesses to the committee, Ms. Mary Campbell from the corrections and criminal justice directorate, and Mr. Douglas Hoover from the criminal law policy section. Thank you very much for coming.
We need to proceed as quickly as possible here.
The government is distributing some amendments in regard to what we're going to be discussing momentarily.
1:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dave MacKenzie Conservative Oxford, ON
Mr. Chair, when we finished off at the last session we had an amendment from the NDP and a subamendment from the Liberal Party. We have discussed this, and I believe if you ask you will find that the Liberal member will withdraw his subamendment and the NDP member will introduce a slight change in the drafting of his amendment.