Public Safety Committee on Nov. 5th, 2009

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I'd like to go back to what Mr. Davies said. In the French version of his motion, the words "description du crime" are used. However, the word "description" can mean many things. For example, describing a crime may be limited to the description of the crime scene, but that's not the same thing as a modus operandi. The description of the crime and that of the victim are part of the method of operating.

A sex offender often chooses his victim. Some do not choose their victim, but they are in the minority. That's part of the method of operating. If we want to define method of operating in a precise manner, we'll have to add the words "description of the crime scene", "description of the victim", "description of the various stages leading to the crime". The description of the crime is only one part of the method of operating.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Glover, and then Mr. Rathgeber.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

I'm going to try to be brief again. I just want to reiterate what my colleague already said, that there are a couple of problems we have here, and for whatever reason, we've concentrated on this Latin word. But there's another problem, and that is that the people who are going to be using these sections typically are police officers, who don't study Latin, who cannot tell you very quickly what mens rea and modus operandi are, because depending on what province or what territory they're in, they use different wording. So there was a suggestion by Mr. MacKenzie that further study and consultation would have to be required so that provincial and territorial partners, as well as the police community, determine precisely what is meant by that term.

To answer Mr. Holland's question very quickly, hopefully as the parliamentary secretary for official languages I have some input on this. The two official languages, sir, are French and English. The advisors have told us that it's imperative that the statute itself be in either French or English. That eliminates all other—and we're talking about the statute itself. It may appear in the index. It may appear in any kind of document thereafter. But I heard clearly that it must be French or English only. If we see there are two problems, we may not be able to decide this here. We'll be going around in circles. Perhaps we ought to defer this so they can do a little more work, and then we can move on to other clauses so that we can get through this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. Rathgeber.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you.

I think I can help Mr. Holland with his problem.

The distinction is between words and phrases. If a word with a Latin origin makes its way into Webster's Dictionary it becomes eligible for drafting into a statute of the Parliament of Canada. But a phrase is different. Mens rea is a phrase, actus reus is a phrase, and res ipsa loquitur is a phrase. However, you might see the word res in the Parliament of Canada. So the distinction is between words with origins that ultimately have English usage, and phrases that are specific to Latin and therefore ineligible.

I'd be happy to go into more detail at my normal hourly rate.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Let's try to wrap this up, or we'll have to stand it down for a while.

Monsieur Ménard.

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

I agree with Ms. Glover. We should defer this.

However, I would simply like to emphasize that my idea—and I'm not saying this is the best one, even though I thought it was when I submitted it—was to save police officers time. The idea was to encourage them to describe a way of acting succinctly, so that it would be useful.

However, Mr. Davies' suggestions would lengthen the description. The idea would be to describe the various crimes from which police officers would have to deduce the modus operandi. I'm entirely in favour of the definition in Black's Law Dictionary. I find it very comprehensive. So if we all agree to add that concept, we can do so.

Lastly, I nevertheless wanted to point out that the term "modus operandi" may perhaps appear in Webster's Dictionary, but it is definitely in the Petit Robert, which is a kind of bible for ordinary French. The term is very succinctly defined as a manner of proceeding, a method of operating. In my opinion, both expressions correspond exactly to what I wanted to add. I hope you understand the distinction with regard to what Mr. Davies is suggesting.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We need unanimous consent to withdraw. He's offering to withdraw the amendment at this point.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I didn't understand what you said, Mr. Chairman. Could you repeat it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Did you offer to withdraw your amendment?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

No, I suggested that we defer study of the amendment and that, in the meantime, experts agree on these matters. I wanted to add that. That's what I want, and I wanted them to understand it. I don't want police officers to tell all kinds of stories.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Do you want to stand it down for a while, Mr. MacKenzie?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

On the contrary, I want them to summarize, in a few words, useful information for the identification of a person, sometimes unknown, who has committed a number of crimes using the same modus operandi.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I suggest we get ourselves out of this situation and ask the officials to come back at another time with more information on it.

I'm wondering about the propriety of moving through and accepting the rest so we only have that issue to deal with. I looked at our schedule, and others will have to look at it from their perspective. I think we have time free on December 3 to complete this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Ms. Campbell, do you want to say something?

[Mary Campbell]

We've just been having a quick discussion here. There seems to be a sense that given that Black's Law Dictionary says “a method of operating”, it certainly corresponds to what is in the French dictionary. I'm not sure if it would be

"façon de travailler" or "façon de fonctionner"—

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

We're talking about a method of proceeding, a method of operating.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Are you suggesting we accept that wording instead of “modus operandi”?

[Serge Ménard, Bloc, Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay.

Mr. Holland.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

I do have a problem. I mean, we've gone over this, about being in both dictionaries.... I'm sorry if you find me difficult on this, but when I look at any legislation that any police officer has to use, there is language that can be complex, but it's part of our lexicon.

I have tremendous difficulty with the notion that we can't use this, and I'm worried about the precedent it establishes. If I'm not able to use terms that appear in the Oxford English Dictionary, I think that's a dangerous precedent. The reality is that words, as Monsieur Ménard pointed out--two-word expressions, and déjà vu is another one that's used in English—take on a very specific meaning. They are found in our dictionaries and they can be used readily in our lexicon.

I'm not suggesting we use that particular term in this, but I am saying that I have real problem with the precedent it establishes. We're out of time today, but I think we have to think on this. Maybe the department officials can come up with some better example of the words we're allowed to use from the dictionary and which ones we're not.

I'm concerned about the precedent.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Mr. MacKenzie.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Mr. Chair, I think I have to agree that “method of operation” covers exactly what Mr. Ménard wants. I think it will do that. And I have a commitment from the officials that we can live with that. They will go back to the provincial and territorial partners and deal with the issue.

I think we can complete the whole thing if we can just move into accepting—