Public Safety Committee on Dec. 8th, 2009

[Doug Brady]

I have one comment regarding that.

We don't have many in our program. I know Vancouver has quite a few and I don't know how many James does in Ottawa. We have a couple in our program and we have found success with them as well, but it is a lifelong drug that they're going to be on with methadone. It is harder to get off than any other drug. It is very similar to something like insulin for a diabetic. Once they're on it, they're on it for a lifetime.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay.

Mr. Moffat, I appreciated Mr. Kania's questioning with respect to the crown attorneys, but certainly it's been my observation over the years that crown attorneys and the police will collectively work together to find a solution without the court having to order it. My question to you would be, as a crown attorney, do you see the programs as being far more effective since people are going into them on a voluntary basis rather than having to be ordered by the courts?

[David Moffat]

If you're asking about my experience, I'm now going on to year seven as a prosecutor in various jurisdictions. The follow-through that you have in court and the ability for the crown to come to court twice a week...now in Ottawa, we might be going to once a week. But once or twice a week and that follow-through, and getting them hooked up in that intensive way with treatment while at the same time having that sentence hanging over their heads, seems to be working.

Certainly, I would think that if people went voluntarily on their own—and we talk about going on their own to in-treatment—that works as well. But then the problem is always that they go to in-treatment and then they come back into the community that they came from and they haven't gotten those skills as to how to not use. The advantage of drug treatment court in Ottawa, for instance, is that they're teaching people not to use in the community that they're going back to at the end of their sentence.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I guess what you're saying is that if they're in the court system, there's an incentive for them to take part in the programs, right?

[David Moffat]

Absolutely. The more severe the sentence they're looking at, the more incentive they have.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you.

Dr. Ward, as the study is in mental health and addictions, it certainly seems, I think, to most of us that the custodial system in the justice system has taken over a role that it was never intended to do. People with mental health issues whom society has somehow missed are ending up in custody. Is there a magic bullet out there that we should be looking at to try to get that fixed sooner?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

I still think it comes down to giving us stronger tools. We need to be able to enforce treatment for people as a civil measure, particularly if someone has been involved in the criminal justice system. That may take a lot of twists and turns legally, because ordering treatment for someone is a very serious thing to do legally. But honestly, that's what we need to be able to do.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you.

I shall now go to Ms. Mourani.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good morning everyone. I thank you for being here.

As concerns mental health courts, I would like to know if there are several in Canada or if it is found only in Ottawa.

[Dr. Helen Ward]

There are many mental health courts in Canada. There are probably eight or ten in Ontario, and they are right across the country. There's one in Montreal that recently came to visit us here. I'm sure there are more in Quebec, but I'm not aware of them.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In the document that was distributed to us, it is said that those courts deal essentially with offences for which there can be a diversion from the regular justice system. They seem to deal with a certain type of offence related to mental health. What type of offences are these exactly?

If an individual suffering from mental health problems commits a theft, sells drugs or kills someone, on what criteria will he be referred to a mental health court rather than a regular court?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

Again this is my personal opinion, but a mental health court could be used in areas that wouldn't traditionally be considered to be divertible, for example, domestic assault. It's very common in our court to see a couple who both have mental health issues. They've been living together. There may have been previous incidents and the police have been called. The person, even though he or she was obviously ill, was arrested instead of being hospitalized, perhaps because it didn't work before. Now we have someone who needs special provisions, because both partners want the person to be back in the home. But we need to be able to make sure that person's mental health is treated and monitored.

So this is a good example of the kind of thing a mental health court would do that another court wouldn't necessarily be willing to do.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Do you mean that this type of court will mostly deal with the less serious cases, those that can be treated within the community?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

Are you asking what types of mental health problems we deal with?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

No, but I might be mistaken. I need some more details. I am under the impression that this kind of court is, in fact, for people suffering from a mental health problem but who are charged with minor offences.

We are not talking about vicious murders or extreme cases of child sexual assault, are we?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

We wouldn't deal directly with those crimes in terms of a positive legal outcome, but we might deal with them in the court. There's a provision for someone to be assessed for criminal responsibility for all severities of offences. My program would assess someone who had committed murder, if the court ordered an assessment, and would go back and bring provisions. But if the person wasn't NCR there wouldn't be a diversion, because there would be minimum sentences involved, etc. It would make no sense for it stay in mental health court then.

For things like pedophilia, our program does assessments of people for the court. But a mental health court isn't needed to then apply these recommendations, or for sentencing issues or risk assessments. For the more serious things, there are already fairly good mechanisms in place. The less serious level two offences where there's assault, assault with a weapon perhaps, criminal harassment, or threats are where there's a gap we're trying to address.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

My understanding is that, like drug treatment courts, these courts only deal with minor offences.

[David Moffat]

It varies. In Calgary, we accept people sentenced from one to three years. However, in Ottawa, our program is only for people with a less than two-year sentence. In general, this is for rather minor offences.

Yes, we have recently discovered, in Vancouver and Winnipeg, that the success rate was higher for people charged with more serious offences. It is related to the motivation issue mentioned by Mr. MacKenzie. According to that theory, the more serious the sentence is, the more people are motivated .

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Norlock, you have the floor.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

My thanks to the witness panel.

We're certainly learning a lot about the effectiveness and efficiencies of your various programs, but I was intrigued when Dr. Ward, I believe, indicated that her work or her collaboration with the Mental Health Commission was of great assistance.

Could you explain how you work with the Mental Health Commission?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

Actually, I referred to their work. I'm not working with them directly. Some of my colleagues are, as chairs. What I was doing was commending the work of the Mental Health Commission. I think they have it right in terms of looking at stigma and in terms of looking first at housing in some of the preliminary work they're doing.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Does any of the preliminary work from the commission have a relationship to the forensic side of the treatment of mental health?

[Dr. Helen Ward]

Yes, there's a law and mental health subcommittee as part of the Mental Health Commission, and I know that they've put out a call for proposals to evaluate certain areas of the mental health and justice system. It was a pretty big call for proposals, so they're not really looking at it at the micro level yet. I haven't seen anything, and of course they themselves don't have a lot of money to implement programs.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

I believe it was in the 2008 budget. It was $110 million over five years, I believe.