Public Safety Committee on April 27th, 2010

Evidence of meeting #12 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was illegal.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Contraband Tobacco

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Barry MacKillop Director General, Law Enforcement and Border Strategies Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Superintendent Joe Oliver Director General, Border Integrity, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Steve Sloan Acting Director General, Post Border Programs Directorate, Programs Branch, Canada Border Services Agency

Brenda Paine Director, Office of Policy and Strategic Planning, Controlled Substances and Tobacco Directorate, Department of Health

Pierre Bertrand Director General, Excise and GST/HST Ruling Directorate, Legislative Policy and Regulatory Affairs Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

Dave Bryans President, Canadian Convenience Stores Association, National Coalition Against Contraband Tobacco

Jean-Pierre Fortin First Vice-President, Customs and Immigration Union, National Coalition Against Contraband Tobacco

François Damphousse Director, Non-Smokers' Rights Association

Rob Cunningham Senior Policy Analyst, Canadian Cancer Society

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

We had an initial version where we found errors with our statistics. That was in December. We had to have it reproduced, re-edited, and republished. I think it was finalized in January sometime, and then it had to go to translation. So it's been a while in the making.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

You're saying this report was essentially finalized within the last month or so.

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

Yes, it was within the last month or last two months. Then it went through the approval process as to what our strategy was to release it.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Okay. Obviously if it was until May 2009, the information is from last summer.

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

Well, actually that's another anomaly. If you look, for instance, on page—

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

I know you mentioned October statistics.

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

On page 9, there's a reference to an estimated 800,000 cartons of cigarettes seized from January to October 2009.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

That's fine. When did the government or the minister first see this draft of the report?

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

I think we sent the draft in December, but we had to recall it because of the statistical gap we found.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Did the minister or the assistant, or anybody from the department, have any input in writing this report?

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

No, this was an RCMP written report.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Okay.

In terms of what's in this report, what steps have been taken since this initial information last summer to advance the strategy?

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

Well, the strategy is continuing, as I mentioned. We do have coordinators in each of the regions, and they are implementing the various levels of the strategy.

There were 29 or so initiatives. Some initiatives apply more in some areas than others--for instance, when we talk about surge operations in high-risk areas, in the Cornwall area, for example, that's an example of the type of activity we're undertaking.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

I do want to ask about Cornwall in particular.

This is not a partisan issue. We all agree it needs to be stopped, for whatever reason, but we agree it needs to be stopped.

My understanding is that 90% of the problem--something very large--for all of Canada comes through Cornwall. Is that accurate?

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

I think that used to be the position. That fluctuates now with the fact that we have manufacturers in Canada as well. Historically, Cornwall has been a significant majority.

I don't know where the number 90% came from, but it has been a number that's been kicked around. I wouldn't say it's 90%, but I would say it's a significant majority.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Okay, so it's very high.

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

Yes.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

If we can solve the Cornwall problem, can we make a serious dent for Canada?

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

Well, this is where the strategy has to be multi-layered. What we've seen in the past is displacement to other markets. Cornwall would be one area we'd have to focus on, and we would then have to focus efforts on the organized crime groups that are manufacturing in Canada.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

That's fine.

The border posting has been moved off the island into Canada—

4:15 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

Yes.

4:15 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

—but I understand it's temporary. Has the movement of the border post off the island back into Canada assisted in the enforcement, in essence helped in terms of fighting the illicit trade?

4:20 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

In the past what was happening is that the contraband would be smuggled across the river to the island and then driven off the island. With the placement of the port of entry there was an adjustment in the market, and for a period of time--a couple of months--we saw that evolving. Prices for contraband went up, which reduces the profit availability for organized crime. So there was an impact.

Since then, there's been some displacement of activity to the east--all by river--from the U.S. side directly into Canada towards the Valleyfield area.

4:20 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Would you agree with me that this border post should not be moved back onto the island and that for enforcement purposes it should stay right where it is?

4:20 p.m.

C/Supt Joe Oliver

I couldn't agree, because I don't have all of those facts as to whether—