Evidence of meeting #14 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was privacy.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Gerard McDonald  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport
Superintendent Larry Tremblay  Director General, National Security Criminal Operations, National Security Criminal Investigations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Laureen Kinney  Director General, Aviation Security Directorate, Department of Transport
Kristina Namiesniowski  Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Chantal Bernier  Assistant Privacy Commissioner, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Micheal Vonn  Policy Director, British Columbia Civil Liberties Association
Roch Tassé  National Coordinator, International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Roger Préfontaine

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

I'd like to bring this meeting to order.

This is the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security, meeting number 14, and we are today discussing the passenger protect program and the U.S. no-fly list.

We have three groups represented today: the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, the Department of Transport, and the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness.

We would like to welcome our witnesses this afternoon. We look forward to your testimony. When you begin, introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about yourself. We won't count it as part of your ten minutes.

This is only a one-hour meeting. I can't stay for the entire time, but that's not a problem; somebody will fill in here.

Have you decided who would go first, or should I just follow the order? Mr. McDonald will go first?

3:30 p.m.

Gerard McDonald Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

That will be me, Mr. Chairman. I will be making the only opening statement for the group, if that's okay, Mr. Chairman.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

For the entire group?

3:30 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

That's correct.

3:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Okay, thank you very much. You may go ahead whenever you're ready. Please introduce everybody.

3:30 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

Yes, I will. I'll introduce who is here with me today.

On my far right is Kristina Namiesniowski, the associate deputy minister for strategic policy in the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. On my immediate right is Laureen Kinney, director general, aviation security, with Transport Canada. On my left is Chief Superintendent Larry Tremblay, director general, national security operations, with the RCMP.

I want to thank you for providing us the opportunity to speak to you today about the passenger protect program.

Since the December 25, 2009, incident that confirmed the continuing terrorist interest in targeting passenger flights, Canada, like our international partners, has been reviewing its aviation security programs. The prevailing approach to aviation security used in Canada, the United States, Australia, and other countries involves the use of multiple layers, creating a robust system of defence against threats. As international partners strengthen existing security measures or develop new technologies and passenger assessment systems, it's important for Canada to keep pace with its international partners so that we are not a weak link and the global system remains strong. In this environment, we've continued to work to improve the passenger protect program and learn from our experience operating the program over the last three years.

The passenger protect program was established in June 2007 as a mechanism for preventing persons who pose an immediate threat to aviation security from boarding a flight. The program was designed after extensive consultation with stakeholders, including valuable input from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner. The program complements other layers of our system, including the physical screening of passengers and their bags, and the passenger protect program is targeted specifically on our core mandate, as its scope is focused on aviation security.

The Passenger Protect Program and the supporting Identity Screening Regulations involve a partnership between government agencies and air carriers. To briefly describe the program, Transport Canada, using information from the RCMP and CSIS, provides recommendations to the Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities concerning individuals who may pose an immediate threat to a flight should they be permitted to board.

The list of these individuals who pose a threat, called the Specified Persons List, contains the name, date of birth and gender of each specified person, and is provided to air carriers. Under the Identity Screening Regulations, air carriers are required to check passengers against the Specified Persons List, prior to issuing the boarding pass. When a passenger's name, date of birth and gender match with an entry on the Specified Persons List, the airline contacts the Transport Canada Operations Centre, which is open 24/7.

An officer on duty will validate the match, make a decision on whether an emergency direction is required to prohibit the person from boarding the aircraft, or take any action required to ensure that aviation security is maintained.

Concerns about false positives, mistaken identity, and long delays were raised to the department before we implemented the program. These have not become issues. The procedures built into the program enable efficient resolution of airline calls about potential matches, leading to minimal delays.

The department verifies reports of delays to determine whether they are program-related. We have had only one instance where delays were due to the program, and we have worked with the individual to facilitate future travel.

Recourse for an individual denied boarding is available through the Transport Canada Office of Reconsideration. This office engages independent advisors to review the case and makes a recommendation to the minister on whether the original listing decision should be reconsidered. Individuals may also lodge complaints with other bodies, such as the Security Intelligence Review Committee and the Commission for Public Complaints against the RCMP. They may also apply to the Federal Court for a judicial review.

With any new program questions and challenges are not unexpected. These challenges, such as the case under judicial review, may be useful in determining ways of strengthening the program.

We have taken a number of steps to improve the program since its inception. For example, we amended the Identity Screening Regulations in September 2008, following consultation with stakeholders.

We removed the need for passengers who appear to be under 18 years of age to present identification. This amendment was based on a careful assessment of the regulations, taking into account the low risk persons younger than 18 represent, the difficulty in obtaining the required type of identification, and the potential for limiting mobility for domestic flights within Canada when the proper identification is not available.

Requirements were also changed regarding identification documents used at the boarding gate, facilitating boarding procedures. We strengthened the program by incorporating into regulations elements that were previously included in a memorandum of understanding entered into with each air carrier in the program. These include regulatory obligations on air carriers related to the appropriate use, access, and disclosure of information provided to them by Transport Canada in relation to the program. We also dealt with potential issues of non-compliance through amendments that allow Transport Canada's inspectors to issue monetary penalties to carriers for certain infractions against the Identity Screening Regulations.

The passenger protect program remains an important element of Canada's aviation security program and a key factor in maintaining our credibility in the area of passenger assessment. We will continue to look for ways to improve this security program, ensure the safety and security of passengers, and maintain the efficiency and competitiveness of Canada's aviation industry.

We would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Garry Breitkreuz

Thank you very much. I appreciate that.

The usual practice at this committee, as you're probably aware, is to go around, with the various political parties asking questions and making comments, for about seven minutes each on the first round.

Mr. Kania, go ahead, sir.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for being here today.

I support security, obviously. I'm looking for a system that is logical and that is fair to travellers, both travellers who are being screened and persons who frankly would never be screened or potentially on a list, so that they can go through expeditiously.

The first thing I want to ask about this specified persons list is how is it determined when somebody gets on this particular list? For example, I have constituents who have got on this list and who have difficulty flying, who have been stopped, and one of them was an eight-year-old boy. So how do people get on this list? The main point of this particular question is once they get on, if they shouldn't be on, what can they do to get off?

3:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

Just by way of my first point, your problem with the eight-year-old boy, I would point out that there is no one on the list under the age of 18 years, as required by our identity screening regulations.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Let me stop you there. These persons were in Germany and the airline stopped them, screened them, and told that they were on the Canadian list and they were being stopped from coming back from Canada. I would like to know how that could possibly occur and how situations like that can be fixed. Obviously that's an error, and there must be some way....

I've not been able to get the Minister of Public Safety to respond yet, and I've not been able to in any way find a way to get them off the list, so I'm asking you, what do I do? Why do they have to come to a member of Parliament to seek assistance? What can they do to get themselves off?

3:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

I don't know the specifics of that particular case, but I can tell you that if they were on the Canadian specified persons list, they would have been notified directly that they were on that list, and I am not aware that such a notification has taken place.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Let me ask this hypothetical. Let's say that the Canadians had decided to bar them because they were perhaps on the U.S. list. Do the Canadians just follow what the Americans say? Is that one possibility?

3:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

No, it's not a possibility. The Canadian list is a sole list in and of itself and has nothing to do with the American list.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Does Canada follow the U.S. list?

3:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Okay, fine. How are these constituents of mine supposed to fix this problem?

3:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

The only redress we have at Transport Canada would be with whether they were on the specified persons list. If they were denied boarding because of being on the Canadian specified persons list, they would have received notification that they were on the list. If they did receive that notification, then they would be able to apply, through our office of reconsideration, for reconsideration of that determination.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Okay. Let's discuss this. It's indicated that this particular program is a secret program, and when somebody's name is added to the list, they're not told. Is that accurate?

3:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

That is correct.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Why are they not told? Why is there not a method to allow somebody to, in essence, defend themselves if they're added to this list?

3:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

Part of the reason for having the list is that we do not want people who may be a threat to aviation to know whether they are on the list or not so that we can keep them on their toes, as it were, with respect to whether they would use the aviation system or not.

If someone who is on the list attempts to board a flight and we make an emergency direction with respect to their boarding, they will be notified that an emergency direction has been made, notified that they are on the list, and given a summary of the reasons that they are on that particular list. Then they can apply to our office of reconsideration to get themselves taken off the list.

3:40 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Once again, for innocent persons who are on this list and are barred from flying, would it not be better to let them know that they're on the list so that they can actually do something about it? How is it fair to innocent persons that they're not told?

3:40 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

First of all, there has been no one stopped from flying who is not on the list.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

That's never happened.

3:45 p.m.

Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Safety and Security, Department of Transport

Gerard McDonald

That has never happened.