Public Safety Committee on April 29th, 2010

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

I want to interrupt, because I don't have much time. I'm sorry.

What I'm concerned about is Canadians who don't go into the United States. A Canadian who has no intention of going there, who wants to fly to Mexico City, could be barred not because of anything happening in this country but because an entity in the United States says they can't board that flight.

Do you have any position on that, or are you aware if the Canadian government has expressed any reservations in defence of Canadians in this country in that position?

[Kristina Namiesniowski]

The Canadian government has done a number of things. When the U.S. secure flight program was being contemplated, the U.S. government issued something called a notice of proposed rule-making, which is the process they use as they're moving towards the implementation of a program.

In response to that notice of proposed rule-making, the Canadian government made a number of overtures to the U.S. government. At that time, we sought a full and complete exemption from the entire application of the program. A number of other interventions were made by other countries, as well as other groups, some of which were in the United States.

As a result of Canada's intervention, the U.S. government made a determination that they were willing to give us the domestic exemption—so as you've mentioned, flights between two points within Canada. But at this point, they've been clear that they're not contemplating an exemption for the overflight provisions.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Has Canada responded to that decision?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

That will have to be your final question.

[Kristina Namiesniowski]

We had a number of conversations with the U.S. government, up to and including at the ministerial level, expressing our desire to be completely exempted, which did not happen at the end of the day. The U.S. government's decision is reflected in their final rule, which was issued in October 2008. So we are not exempted from the application of the overflight decision.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you. I think I'm out of time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacKenzie, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the panel for being here today.

I think one of the problems we deal with in this whole area is that there are a number of different no-fly lists that get mixed in. So sometimes when a Canadian carrier in a foreign country turns somebody away, it's not necessarily because of the Canadian list that may exist.

I think most of us are aware that there's a UN no-fly list. The Americans have theirs. We have one. Other countries have their own. I think sometimes it all gets mixed in. If it's a Canadian who gets denied flight, it always seems to come back that there must be a Canadian reason for it.

I think Mr. Davies has brought up something that, as Canadians, we need to know and respect, and that is that the airspace above Canada—Canada being a sovereign country—is our airspace. We rule the skies above Canada, as does every other country theirs. So the Americans may have their rules about flying through their airspace that have nothing to do with landing in the United States.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but the airlines get the list and it's up to them to follow through with the names that are on the list.

I think you indicated, Mr. McDonald, that we had two false positives in three years.

[Gerard McDonald]

That's correct.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Two false positives in three years would not seem to me to be an exorbitant number, but what we do hear about are a lot of others that probably relate more to the Americans, who may not have the descriptors and identifiers that are on our list.

I do believe you said it, and I read it, that we do not have people on there under 18.

[Gerard McDonald]

That's correct.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

So if someone was on there who was 19, and a 13-year-old showed up with the same name, how long should it take or would it take to identify that somebody got the names together, but it's not the same person because the identifiers don't match?

[Gerard McDonald]

A case like that would seem to me to be dead simple and it would take a matter of mere seconds to make that determination. Our experience with the 600 or so calls we've received is we can resolve any questions or issues on an average of between three and five minutes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

And that's available to the airlines 24 hours a day.

[Gerard McDonald]

Yes, 24/7.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

My friend Mr. Kania related an incident, and I know that it would be of great concern to a family that has an eight-year-old who couldn't get on the flight, but would Transport Canada maintain our passenger protect program? The Minister of Public Safety does not maintain that record, correct?

[Gerard McDonald]

It is Transport Canada that maintains the list. That's correct, the Minister of Transport.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I would suggest that Mr. Kania might write to the Minister of Transport to try to clarify the particular issue that exists.

[Gerard McDonald]

Certainly we would have no problem with that, but I would again note that if this person was denied boarding because of being on the specified persons list, it is our policy to ensure that they are aware that they are on the list if they are denied boarding, and they would be given reasons as to why they're on that list. If that was indeed the reason why this particular person was not boarded, they would have that information with them.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Could that person be on some other country's no-fly list and the identifiers have picked them up, even though they were going to be flying to Canada on an Air Canada flight?

[Gerard McDonald]

Anything is possible. The airlines maintain all types of different lists for flyers who behave badly on flights, for people who don't pay their bills, for any number of things, as well as other countries' no-fly lists. I can only speculate.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I think that's one of the other important things. Although countries have those no-fly lists, the airlines may have their own lists for a variety of reasons, including a couple of the things you mentioned there from an economic perspective, so that someone can't get on.

[Gerard McDonald]

That's quite possible, yes.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

The other thing is I went through the Privacy Commissioner's report, and I did note in the one I saw, the more recent one, that the examination occurred in June 2007 to March 2009. Would that be the most recent of the Privacy Commissioner's reports?

[Gerard McDonald]

Yes, that's the only one.