Evidence of meeting #17 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
But he did say we were complicit. He was questioned rather heavily. Is it now your position that there was not an intelligence failure in those cases, and you're disagreeing with the conclusions of Mr. Iacobucci?
4:50 p.m.
Assistant Director, Foreign Collection, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I agree with Mr. Iacobucci, including the statement I've just read.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Mark Holland Liberal Ajax—Pickering, ON
I'm sorry, but if you don't accept those conclusions and you're trying to get out of it by saying there wasn't any direct involvement, then how can we believe you on other issues of torture?
4:50 p.m.
Conservative
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Welcome, Mr. Coulombe and Mr. Fadden.
In the additional report, Mr. Iacobucci very clearly states that your services likely contributed indirectly to the abuses against Mr. Abou-Elmaati in Egypt. Point 5 states that CSIS and the RCMP feel it is not the responsibility of intelligence or law enforcement to be concerned with the human rights of a Canadian detainee.
I'd like to hear your comments on that subject. Are you required to respect human rights in your investigations?
4:50 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
I'll make a general statement, like my colleague. Mr. AlMaki, Mr. Abou-Elmaati and Mr. Nureddin sued the Crown. I don't think it would be appropriate for us to comment in greater detail.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
No, I simply want to know whether you respect human rights when you conduct your investigations.
4:50 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Very well.
I'll move on to another case, that of Omar Khadr. When your investigators found themselves in Guantanamo opposite this young child, and he took off his shirt—we saw this very clearly in the video—to show that he had been abused, tortured, why did you do absolutely nothing, why did your service do nothing about the matter? Did you use the information reported by Omar Khadr?
4:50 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Mr. Chairman, it has to be recalled that there were various episodes concerning Mr. Khadr's detention at Guantanamo Bay. First, when we went to interview him, there weren't as many allegations or videos, and the courts hadn't considered what happened, either at Guantanamo Bay generally, or against Mr. Khadr in particular. We went to see him because we thought he had information concerning the security of Canada. In that context, we executed a decision by the government in general. What we did is to talk to him. Our officers saw no indication of torture or inappropriate treatment.
4:55 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
That depends when it was, madam.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
It was in February 2003. This is a report by the review committee. The CSIS investigator is with Omar Khadr. The youth takes off his shirt, shows his injuries. He tells you in particular that he was mistreated, that, to those who had interrogated him he had told lies that were extracted from him under duress. What I want to know is whether you use information obtained by torture. You say no, that you can't really analyze it, that sometimes you don't really know. However, in this case, a youth showed you that he was injured while detained at Guantanamo. At first glance, Guantanamo isn't for children. How was it that this youth didn't even have a lawyer? According to your instructions, you are normally required to conduct your examinations in the presence of lawyers.
4:55 p.m.
Director, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
Absolutely not. It's not a criminal investigation. If we were a law enforcement agency, lawyers would have to be present. A lawyer is in no way required to be present when we conduct interviews of individuals.
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
All right, it applies to minors as well.
In Canada, when you conduct examinations of individuals who you feel may be of interest, are you accompanied by lawyers? Do you have to have a warrant or not?
4:55 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Very well.
I now refer you to the report of the International Civil Liberties Monitoring Group. I've received some testimonials from young Canadians, Montrealers and Quebeckers of Arab or Islam extraction who said they had received calls from CSIS making appointments to meet in cafés, asking them to work for the service as infiltration agents. These are young CEGEP and university students. And when they don't want to do so, there are reprisals.
I'm going to cite you some examples. A young Palestinian Canadian was visited by two CSIS officers at his home. They took him to a café and questioned him; they didn't have a warrant. They asked him to come without a lawyer and said they had information about his family that could cause problems in his country of origin, that they might use it if he didn't cooperate. Two days later, he was on the no-fly list. Does that tell you something? Is that part of CSIS's practices?
