Public Safety Committee on May 26th, 2010

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

This is my last question. You mentioned that an internal audit was conducted by the RCMP. It has not been released; it's been embargoed. Do you have a copy of the internal audit?

[Chief William Blair]

I've had the privilege of seeing it.

There are actually two documents. One is an internal audit and one is an internal evaluation on the firearms program. As I understand it, both of the documents are quite supportive of the efficiency and the value of the firearms program, but they have not yet been made public.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Chair, this is the third time that witnesses have made reference to that document. It was done in February 2010. I'd like to make a request that the committee ask the Commissioner of the RCMP for a copy of the document. If it's not possible to provide it bilingually, then I'm sure the committee would be happy to accept it unilingually, given the fact that this matter is urgent and we've now had three witnesses raise the issue.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

No, Mr. Chairman, I don't accept any unilingual English versions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Okay. I guess we have an issue there. We can discuss this at the end of the meeting.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Is it possible to save five minutes at the end for that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

I won't be here. If you wish, and if the committee decides that's what they'd like to do, then they can do it.

Ms. Mourani, please.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Good afternoon to everyone and thank you for being here. I would like to start with Dr. Maurice, with your permission.

Dr. Maurice, you said in your address that 300 deaths a year are avoided as a result of the registry. Yesterday we heard from Mr. Boisvenu in the committee and he told us that he doubted the registry's effectiveness as a preventive tool.

What do you think about that?

[Dr. Pierre Maurice]

First, we didn't say that 300 deaths had been avoided as a result of the registry. We said that there was a decrease of 300 deaths associated with Bill C-68.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Pardon me, I misunderstood.

[Dr. Pierre Maurice]

That bill contains two essential and very important ingredients, which are the possession permit and registration. We think it's very risky at this time, in view of the effectiveness of the act, which includes these two important ingredients, to remove from the act one of the main ingredients, in view of the fact that we save 300 lives a year in Canada with the act as it stands.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Unless I'm mistaken, you think that, if we remove one of those two ingredients, the system wouldn't be as effective?

[Dr. Pierre Maurice]

The system is quite effective because there's a reduction of 300 deaths a year. Considering that the measure is that effective, and considering all the costs it represents, it seems reasonable to me that solid, well supported evidence should be provided to demonstrate that the registry is ineffective before making any changes to the system. We know that the act, as it currently stands, makes it possible to effectively reduce the number of firearm-related deaths.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

So you're saying the registry makes it possible to effectively reduce the number of deaths by firearms?

[Dr. Pierre Maurice]

We're saying that the act makes it possible to effectively reduce the number of deaths, and the act consists of ingredients, including the registry.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Do you have any examples to give us concerning the registry as a prevention tool?

[Dr. Pierre Maurice]

Do you mean apart from firearms?

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

No. I'm talking about the firearms registry as a prevention tool. Do you have an example?

[Dr. Pierre Maurice]

On the one hand, as a result of the firearms registry and the accompanying act as a whole, firearms owners will be much more inclined to comply with the regulations regarding storage, the transfer of possession of a firearm, donation, sale, and so on. On the other hand, this is one very important means of protection for police forces who have to intervene, particularly when they have to remove weapons from someone who is known to be dangerous.

I want to add another point. To date, we've heard a lot of arguments from people who consider the glass half empty, that is to say who give greater consideration to what the registry does not do. However, you also have to consider that the majority of firearm-related deaths in Canada are not caused by criminals who do not comply with acts and regulations. The majority of people who die from firearms in Canada are people like you and me, well intended people who obey Canada's law and regulations and who, in practice, most of the time, register their weapons. Consequently, this knowledge, the registration of weapons and also the process imposed for the issuing of gun licences helps reduce the risk that a person who owns a firearm may misuse it as a result of a crisis, personal problems, a mental illness, problems with depression and so on.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Yesterday, we heard from Mr. Mauser, who is often quoted by members of the Conservative government and by various MPs. We were also told that he had been cited by Mr. Day, former minister of public safety. It's often mentioned, even in the government's arguments, that knives, and not shoulder guns, are most often used to kill women in spousal abuse cases. Ms. Hoeppner, who is the spokesperson for this bill, said that an oven was as dangerous as a firearm.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have two minutes left.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

In your practice, have you observed that knives, ovens, household objects are used much more than firearms?

[Dr. Pierre Maurice]

I'm going to let my colleague Mr. Blais answer your question.

[Etienne Blais, Assistant Professor, School of Criminology, University of Montreal, Institut national de santé publique du Québec]

I have two points I want to clarify. First, it must be understood that a firearm is the ideal instrument with which to commit suicide or homicide, because it gives the attacker an incredible advantage over his victim. It enables him to kill the person more quickly and impersonally. A lot of people wouldn't commit a homicide or commit suicide with a knife if they didn't have a firearm within reach because they would be unable to do so. Consider the example of a 100-pound woman who attacks a 200-pound man; the firearm gives her an incredible power over her victim. The difference in strength between the individuals involved is no longer so important when a firearm is involved, but it remains if a knife is used.

The second thing you have to know is that, while knives are used as much in homicides, while they are used in the same proportion, that is particularly as a result of effective firearms control. The percentage of homicides committed by knife may increase at the same time as the homicide rate in general declines. It's because the rate of homicide by firearms is falling that the rate of homicide by knife is increasing. However, that doesn't mean that knives are more dangerous.

That's why these statistics must be compared with the trend in rates of homicide by firearms or by other methods.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I have training as a criminologist and I remember that we were told, in the lectures that were given, that it was much easier to kill with a firearm than with a knife. Holding a knife in your hand and stabbing someone takes on a personal dimension, involves contact with an individual, as a result of which it is much easier to kill someone with a firearm than with a knife.