Public Safety Committee on May 26th, 2010

[Det Sgt Murray Grismer]

That's a very simple question to ask and answer.

I would put the money towards the scarce resources, towards more police officers on the street. We know, because of specific targeting we've done in the last number of months in Saskatoon in relation to a crime wave that has come through the city, that by putting more officers on the street we're able to see a reduction in that crime. We're talking violent crime. We're talking murders; we're talking aggravated assaults. By having more members on the street, having a more visible presence, we make our society safer than we do by having a registry that contains flawed, inaccurate data that has been collected, Mr. Comartin, in a manner that just breeds error and inaccuracy.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much for that.

One of the issues that has come up today is the whole issue of police being silenced. When I introduced this bill, I really didn't know a lot of police officers except the ones in my caucus. But I've received countless numbers of e-mails, phone calls, and letters from police officers who have said to me, “Please do not give my name, but I support what you're doing.”

I tell you, this is what I'm hearing.

I hear what you're saying as well, Chief Blair. You're asserting that's incorrect, that these officers are not being told to be quiet. So I would like to ask you, just for the record, to be very clear: have you directly or indirectly suggested to any law enforcement officer or police chief who supports my bill that they not vocalize that opinion publicly?

[Chief William Blair]

No, I have not.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Okay. Thank you very much.

I have another question regarding some proposals that Mr. Ignatieff has made on changes to the registry, but also to licensing.

Do you support his proposal to eliminate licensing fees for first-time licence applicants?

[Chief William Blair]

The actual fee structure has very little to do with the efficacy of the licensing system. It's an administrative matter. I frankly don't have a strong opinion one way or the other.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

So do you believe the licensing process is where individuals are actually screened to own firearms?

[Chief William Blair]

I think licensing is extremely important, and the screening of those individuals is extremely important. As to what is the appropriate fee to charge them, I'll leave that to the administrators.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Would you support weakening that licensing process or strengthening it?

[Chief William Blair]

I believe the licensing process must remain strong. It has value.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Thank you very much.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

Thank you.

We'll go now to the Bloc and Mr. Desnoyers.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question is for Mr. Farrant.

Your sixth recommendation reads as follows:

6. Domestic violence is a serious but preventable societal problem. Public education and debt counselling can help reduce stress in the home and the workplace and accordingly, may help to reduce overall instances of domestic violence. Use the money being wasted on the long gun registry to attack the root causes of poverty, another cause of domestic upheaval.

Reading that recommendation, I wondered if you were serious.

[Greg Farrant]

Certainly when we made—

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Are you familiar with domestic violence?

[Greg Farrant]

Without needing to insult me, sir, yes, I am aware of what spousal abuse is. It takes many forms, not only of physical violence but verbal abuse. Certainly there are many forms of that. This is just one of the recommendations we've made in here. One of the suggestions we've made—

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

This recommendation is important because you're talking about domestic violence, and all the witnesses heard came and told us that firearms could play an important role in domestic violence, which you don't say in that. Did you forget it?

[Greg Farrant]

What, to say that it is a part of spousal violence? We're making a recommendation....

Sir, you've asked me the question. I'd like to try to answer your question.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

A number of witnesses came and told us that firearms are used in domestic violence. Are you aware of that? I understand that you're not an expert.

I'm going to ask another question, but this time I'm going to put it to Dr. Maurice.

You talked about an important component: health. You talked about saving $400 million. I find that figure significant. If the registry or Bill C-68 or the certificate makes it possible to save such large amounts of money, I believe both sides of this House should significantly take that component into account.

[Dr. Pierre Maurice]

In fact, the calculation is simple. It's based on a study conducted by an expert in cost-benefit studies, Mr. Ted Miller. He conducted a study on the cost of firearm-related deaths in Canada—those costs have been adjusted to current dollars. He estimates the value of one saved life at roughly $1.5 million, just considering the direct and indirect costs. Those costs mainly consist of the lost productivity of the people who die. These are often young people who will not produce during their working lives, and so on.

If you do the calculation, it's quite easy to come to the conclusion that we're saving quite a bit of money for Canadian society as a whole.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

This is a component that's too often overlooked on this committee, especially on the Conservative side, because they want to abolish it rather than see what this investment can do for society.

Mr. Blair, you talked about an additional tool. You didn't talk about a tool that solves all police officers' problems, but you said that it's an important tool in the police arsenal. I'd like to hear you say a little more on that point.

[Chief William Blair]

Thank you.

The registry is an important information tool. We have many tools available to us. We have legislation, we have other information databases that we rely on, information that comes from our criminal intelligence gathering, information from our records management systems, information that we share among police services and among our police partners. These are tools that help us be effective in our work.

The gun registry is one of those tools. It is not a perfect tool, as I've said. It does not solve all our problems and prevent every crime, but we have no expectation that information can do that.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Ms. de Villiers, yesterday, a Conservative senator, who is also a representative of a victims association, appeared before us. He did not know which way to turn, but you know. I'd like to hear you say a little more about domestic violence.

[Priscilla de Villiers]

Thank you for the question.

I will be sending these around to show that I'm representing a number of organizations and victims, not just my opinion.

Yes, over the last 19-odd years, I have had a lot of dealings with many types of homicide and serious violence, and obviously with very serious domestic violence—spousal abuse, young people who have been killed or very badly injured—and in most of the cases, and some of them are listed here, there was a mental illness or depression, or suicidal ideation, that predicted this.

One of the things that has concerned me over the last 20 years is the misinformation, lies, and, frankly, distortions that have prevented families, people within the home, from using the opportunity to call to attention that the gun is taken out of the house. So that is where the gun registry has made a huge—

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Phil McColeman]

We'll have to end it there. Thank you.

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Chief Blair, for appearing before our committee. Before I start, I'd like to also thank you for those 33 years of serving and protecting the citizenry of Toronto.