Public Safety Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Ross Toller]

Thirty-three years.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

You've been with them for 33 years, so you'd be aware....

I looked up statistics in terms of total funding for the employment and employability programs, the programs we're specifically talking about here. We're talking about a portion of it, but I mean the overall program spending. I'm looking at the statistics from 2001. I'm looking at the period from 1999 to 2010, roughly a 10-year period, and I'm looking at 2001-02; approximately $42 million, or just under $43 million, was spent in that year. In 2002-03, the spending went to $22 million, which is almost half of what it had been. What was the reason for that?

[Ross Toller]

I don't actually have that information with me. I could hazard a guess, but I prefer not to. If you'd prefer, I'd like to go through the detail, unless you have them, Liette. No?

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Interestingly enough, Mr. Easter, who is visiting our committee today, was actually the Solicitor General during that period. Now, I'm not asking him to explain the answer to that question, but this is half the program spending in that period of time, the time when he was indeed in that position. It did rise in subsequent years, and in fact peaked out to almost exactly what it is today last year.

I point that out because I also have to.... It skirts the question, as we heard from the opposition member here, of the importance of these. Why he didn't expand them during those years is perhaps another question. Is there a reason they didn't get expanded? In fact, Quebec doesn't even have this type of facility and never did have. Could you explain that to us? Why weren't they expanded during that period of time?

[Ross Toller]

Do you mean why farm operations were not expanded?

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Yes.

[Ross Toller]

There were no considerations, no executive committee conversations, about looking to expand the farms at those points in time.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

The other part of this that I do want to talk about on a very personal level is the following. For all of my working life, or until October 2008, I had my own construction company, and I know, having looked into this, that the construction trades are the biggest employer of inmates. In fact, I had an aboriginal carpenter who worked for my company who had run into trouble from time to time and spent some time in institutions. I have to tell you he was one of the best employees I ever had. The skill set he had developed during his life, which didn't only include the time he was in prison, was among the best I've ever had.

You mentioned the CBC documentary on or commentary about this. I also went to that website and got some information. I just want to talk about one individual, Jessie Hoover, whose name is not confidential because it was mentioned in the documentary. He worked on the house project you mentioned and he said he was now apprenticing at framing houses. I quote him:

Some of the skills that I learned in this project would be, you know good work ethic, coming to work on time, working hard when you're at work, plus the carpentry side of it, learning how to frame the house from the ground up.

Now that is not to diminish the fact that these kinds of skills can be acquired as well through farming and the agricultural route. That said, I truly appreciate your comment that we will achieve greater benefits by taking this action and helping people acquire the skill sets, trades, and things they will need when they get through the programs you're moving towards.

I'll open it up for you either to debate me on this or reinforce my comments.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

There is time for a brief response.

[Ross Toller]

As I've said here before, the reality of an inmate finding a job after release from penitentiary is very strongly associated with their ability to stay and function in the community as a productive citizen. Having a job that's not seasonal, a job that's permanent, a job that gives an economic livelihood is a strong measure of offenders' ability to stay out in the community as productive people.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Now we go to Mr. Easter, and I believe you're splitting your time with Mr. Kania.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I have just one quick question and then I'll turn to Mr. Kania.

The impression was left by Ms. Glover, who I'd say took substantial liberty with the numbers, that of all the people who went through the prison farm, only 14 became employed.

Could you give us the numbers on how many inmates who came through the prison farm system attained employment? If you don't have those numbers with you today, could you add to that list of numbers in a further response a comparison of the recidivism rates of those who came out of the prison farm system and those who came out of the other CORCAN programs?

[John Sargent]

As I previously stated, we do not track the rates of recidivism separately for the individual components of the programs within CORCAN or the other elements. We can undertake to look at that area, but I think in previous submissions we've stated that we do not track the offender separately based on the work opportunities they may have had within the system, because they may have had multiple opportunities to work in different programs, plus receiving some of our other programs and educational—

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

However, you're certainly not saying that only 14 people who came through the prison system attained jobs. That's what Ms. Glover's figures say. That's what she said, in referring to the costs.

[Shelly Glover, Conservative, Saint Boniface, MB]

In agriculture.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Let's keep the questions to the witnesses.

[John Sargent]

Well, as I stated, the information I gave was for fiscal year 2008-09 for the people who came through the employment centres run by CORCAN out in the community to assist those offenders to find jobs in the community. The figures show that 14 out of the 2,560 offenders who found work found it in the agricultural or horticultural field.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Let me come at it a different way. Did the ones who came out of the prison farm system find employment or are they still out in the wild blue yonder without employment? We want to know if they found work. They don't have to be working on farms. There are all kinds of lawyers around this town who are politicians. Even some policemen are politicians.

[Ross Toller]

As was communicated, 2,560 who went to the CORCAN employment centres obtained work in this particular field. I don't have it broken down for those who come from the farm, but the essence of this is that the availability of farm work is significantly lower than that in the construction trades.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

And as I submitted earlier, and I'll give you this, you're wrong.

Andrew.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

You indicated that in terms of the decision to close these farms, you relied on studies, empirical evidence. Is that accurate?

[Ross Toller]

The closure of the farms was as a result of a strategic review exercise that looked at effectiveness, efficiencies, in terms of--

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

What's the document called?

[Ross Toller]

The document? It's a strategic review document.