Public Safety Committee on March 25th, 2010

[Ross Toller]

A lot of our new programs right now are under development. We can have a cost breakdown on some of the ones that have started, but as I say, many of these areas are not yet fully developed. It takes a transition period, obviously, to close things down and start things new.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

This is a major decision. This is giving up on something that Canada has been involved in for the last 100 years. So can you do this, then? Can you refer this matter?

If we can't have it as a committee, can Corrections refer this matter to an independent third party to look at its impact on employment, to take a look at its impact on recidivism, to take a look at its impact in terms of costing? Can you turn it over to an independent third party in whom we can all have trust on those questions?

All we need to know is the end result. We don't need any other information. Can you do that for us before making a decision to shut this down, so that we're making a decision based on fact, not on whatever else this is being made on?

[Ross Toller]

Well, the decision has been made and the continuation towards the advancement of the decision will continue. The reality for us, as I said before, is what we know in terms of economic realities of job availability, where we're moving this organization in terms of our transformation agenda.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Let me ask this final question, and then I have to cut myself off because of time.

Would it not seem reasonable to you that before making a decision of this magnitude you would have clear, concise information on its relative performance in terms of recidivism, employment, and costing? What we've heard today is that we don't have that information. Why on earth would we proceed with a decision in the absence of that information?

[Ross Toller]

I think we heard here today that we have very relevant information in terms of job availability, real jobs that are available in the labour market that unfortunately don't exist in agriculture today.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

I have to cut myself off.

I am going to turn to Madame Mourani

Madam Mourani, you have five minutes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

My question is for Mr. Toller. If I understand correctly, you have no analysis of the recidivism rate. You do not have the numbers for the cohorts. You do not have the breakdown, in other words the number of people who went through the farm program and who then found a job on a farm or in another sector.

You only have 2008-09 statistics for all of the individuals who went through CORCAN, for the number of individuals who found work in construction or in farming. As a criminologist who carries out analyses on various important issues, I never base my analysis on impressions, but rather on facts, numbers, and I then conclude whether a program is effective or not.

I therefore conclude that this is not a decision based on numbers and facts, or on a lack of effectiveness on the part of the program, but rather a decision that was imposed upon you. I know that the primary mission of Correctional Service Canada is the rehabilitation of offenders and inmates based, obviously, on management of the recidivism risk and of the protection of society, to some extent. I know that Correctional Service Canada would not make a decision without having statistics and facts. This is what leads me to believe that this is a decision of the government that has been imposed upon you. Am I mistaken?

[Ross Toller]

We go through cycles in every government department, what's called a strategic review process that looks at our elements in terms of effectiveness and efficiency.

We have an employment area here that is important to instill skills in inmates able to demonstrate marketable skills. It doesn't have availability in there. There is no vocational training.

I mentioned that 60% of our inmates who come to us have no skills or no trade certification. We know very clearly from the economic councils that jobs are available in this particular area, so reinvesting our money in this particular area with a stronger likelihood of getting a job in this area will have public safety results. The reality is, not everybody will be a carpenter; not everybody can be a carpenter. That's why I mentioned the integration of all the programs. We still have to look at the elements associated with some of their anger issues. We still have to look at some of the educational—

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Mr. Toller, has this decision been imposed upon Correctional Service Canada by the government, yes or no?

[Ross Toller]

This was a strategic review process, which is part of the normal government operations we fit into.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

Who requested this strategic review and who carried it out?

[Ross Toller]

The strategic review process is part of normal government operations. In four-year cycles, every department, over various times, is called upon to look at its efficiencies in terms of all its programs.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

If I understand correctly, it is therefore a national strategy, as you call it, established and imposed by the government.

[Ross Toller]

Strategic review processes are normal government cycles we go through every four years.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

The strategy is therefore carried out by the government.

[Ross Toller]

It's a normal part of our cycle every four years, yes.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I understand, but by whom is this strategic annual review carried out? It is carried out by the government and not by Correctional Service Canada or by you.

[Ross Toller]

Each government department does its strategic review process. It's considered in government operations and then it's determined whether budget allocations will be put in certain areas of reinvestment.

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

That is indeed what I had understood, because I do hold Correctional Service Canada — for having worked there — in high regard, and I believe that...

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

A point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Don Davies]

Excuse me, there's a point of order.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Mr. Chair, a point of order.

I believe Mr. Toller has said repeatedly that the strategic review is something every government agency goes through in a four-year process. So it's not something that is imposed by the government of the day; it is a regular process that government goes through to evaluate its programs. Every government in Canada does that—provincial, municipal, federal—and it's just part of what government has to do to verify to taxpayers that taxpayers' money is being appropriately spent.

Mr. Toller, would you agree with that?

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Don Davies]

There's a point of order. The questioning is being done by the Bloc member, so I believe she has the floor--

[Maria Mourani, Bloc, Ahuntsic, QC]

I did not understand the point of order.

[The Vice-Chair, NDP, Don Davies]

Excuse me, Madame Mourani; it would be my ruling that it may be a fair point to make, but it is a question of debate, I think, as opposed to a point of order.