Public Safety Committee on Feb. 8th, 2011

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I would agree that going ahead with the recommendations and with the recommendations that in fact were implemented goes some way to making the organization better. Absolutely.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Right. But I also understand from what you said to Mr. Holland that you were frustrated with the rate of change or the lack of timeliness, in your view. You wanted quicker reform. Did I understand that correctly?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

It was the pace, yes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

The RCMP and the North-West Mounted Police date back to the late 19th century. Is it really realistic to expect overnight change in a force that old and that big and that has so many perceived problems?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

You're right to the extent that it is sometimes not easy, but I would divide change into perhaps two categories, one being change over which we, the RCMP, have control and others over which we do not have control. Government has to implement some changes, such as border management, review of the RCMP Act, and so on. And you can see how these items can take a longer period of time.

However, items of change over which we have control, such as regionalization and succession planning, could move a lot more quickly.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You both indicated that you support Bill C-38 and the civilian oversight that's contemplated in that bill.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[Insp Mike McDonell]

I'm not familiar with the bill.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay. You will agree with me that Commissioner Elliott also supports civilian oversight.

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[Brent Rathgeber, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you. Those are my questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Rathgeber.

We'll move to Mr. Kania.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Sir, you indicated that these problems began at the beginning, when Mr. Elliott came in and became commissioner. And you indicated that for approximately three years you chose to work with him, although these were continuing. Then, the way I take it, after about three years, enough was enough. Does that essentially summarize it?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

It boiled over, if you will.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

How many complaints were made against Mr. Elliott? How many different individuals?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I have no idea how many complaints were made against Bill Elliott. They would not all have been made to me. Some were made to me. Some were made to others within the senior executive.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

But when people make complaints, is it in writing?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I'm not aware of any complaints being made in writing about Bill Elliott. There may very well have been some. I'm aware of one where there was a threat of a complaint being put in writing, and it was eventually not put in writing, but I couldn't tell you whether there were any eventually that were put in writing.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Is there any number you can give for a minimum number? More than 20? More than 50?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

I really don't know.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

What's the nature of these? What's the complaint? Is it verbal abuse? Is that essentially it? Is it threats? What were these?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Yes.

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

Both?

[D/Commr Raf Souccar]

Both, as well as very dismissive, somewhat disrespectful.... Not somewhat--disrespectful. You know—

[Andrew Kania, Liberal, Brampton West, ON]

I'm sorry to interrupt you. I only have five minutes.