Evidence of meeting #55 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victims.
A recording is available from Parliament.
February 15th, 2011 / 8:30 p.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Pate, I have several questions for you, specifically in terms of distinguishing between the people who could really benefit from APR and the crooks my colleague has just described. I'd like you to give us the profile of these individuals, and specifically the women — I was particularly struck by their situation — who benefit from this administrative procedure.
8:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Approximately 82% of women....
Please forgive me for answering in English.
8:30 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
About 82% of the women imprisoned are in for poverty-related offences. So yes, a number of women who would have access to accelerated parole currently would be in for fraud-related offences, but they would not be of this scale that we're talking about. They may have carried packages across town or across borders, and not always drugs--there may be other things.
They're often recruited at social assistance centres in groups. There's certainly a number of cases that have been well documented where in fact it's because they're poor that they're seen as targets by individuals. That's a significant portion. There are some who are in for other types of offences, of course, non-violent, some drug-related, and often related to their histories of victimization.
As well, 82% of women overall and 91% of indigenous women have histories of physical and/or sexual abuse. The lack of supports for their victimization as children and as women often means they may self-medicate, so we see the cross-addiction and mental health issues, and we end up seeing them in the system.
We have women who have committed offences, who have grabbed money or asked aggressively for money on the streets, who have ended up in...who have intellectual disabilities and mental health issues that often are exacerbated. Everybody now knows the story of Ashley Smith throwing crab apples, breach of probation, ending up in custody....
We're not talking about people who are seen as.... Women are the fastest-growing prison population. As we've already heard from the research that I received from Corrections today, overwhelmingly...the number that I received was that 61.6% of those who are able to access accelerated parole are women. So this will disproportionately impact women, who already are the fastest-growing prison population and who are already overrepresented, and already the resources for them are fewer, in the community and in prison, to prevent them being victimized and to prevent them—
8:35 p.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC
The figures you have just cited were given to you today by the Correctional Service of Canada. Is that correct?
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
That's correct.
8:35 p.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC
So, women inmates will be the most negatively affected by the abolition of APR. Is that what you are telling us?
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
That's correct. To my knowledge, none of the cases that people are ostensibly trying to target involve any of these women. There are no high-priced fraud cases that I am aware of.
8:35 p.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC
Contrary to the statement made earlier by my colleague, Ms. Mourani, these individuals will be eligible for parole later, because that is part and parcel of the Canadian legal system; it simply means they will be spending a lot more time in an environment which is not at all conducive to their rehabilitation or treating their problem. That is my understanding.
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
That's correct. Just as an example, I was before another committee on another matter related to violence against women. A woman who was waiting after her second adjournment actually got out because we won an appeal of her sentence. She would otherwise still be in prison awaiting the review, and she is someone who is not seen as an ongoing risk.
8:35 p.m.
Liberal
Alexandra Mendes Liberal Brossard—La Prairie, QC
We are obviously not talking about people who commit economic fraud, such as Norbourg, Earl Jones or the real estate developer we were hearing about. It's not that type of crime.
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I'm not saying that it may not be possible for some woman at some time to do that, but certainly that's not who we have in our jails right now.
8:35 p.m.
Liberal
8:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
You have another 30 seconds, and that's for the question and the answer.
8:35 p.m.
Liberal
Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON
I just want to comment, since I only have 30 seconds.
Mr. Lobb indicated that it costs too much to keep these people in prison. That's what his quote was. There is nobody around this table, including members of our party and all of you there, who agrees with that.
We do not say that it would cost too much to keep these serious persons, like Mr. Jones and Mr. Lacroix, incarcerated, but we are saying that we wish we were here today instead, Mr. Gravel, to help you to have restitution legislation, or to have tax credit legislation, Madam Pate, or something like that, so that you could actually walk out of here thinking that we were helping victims and not simply playing political games.
8:35 p.m.
Conservative
8:35 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Pate, let's talk about women. You said that 61% of them would be eligible for APR. Can you tell me what the average sentence is? Is it two, three or four years?
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I don't have that information. I do know that the average sentence for women has gone down. There's a polarity there. We have a number of women who have used defensive force or reactive force in violent situations, and they're in for violent offences. Those are very long sentences. Then we have a lot of women serving two to three years.
So I presume they would be mostly at the lower range--
8:35 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
If I understood you correctly, you estimate that 61% of women have access to APR, and you say that they are serving two- or three-year sentences. Is that correct?
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
I'm sorry, it's not my estimate; the number is from the Correctional Service of Canada. I don't have that figure, but I'm sure they could provide it to you.
8:35 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
So, what are your figures? You say this will have a major impact on women. What are your figures?
8:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Right. The figures that I was provided by the Correctional Service of Canada are that of those who are eligible for day parole, 61%--
8:35 p.m.
Bloc
Maria Mourani Bloc Ahuntsic, QC
No, I'm talking about your figures. Do you have any? You may not, and that's fine. Do you have any figures?