Evidence of meeting #55 for Public Safety and National Security in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victims.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Kim Pate  Executive Director, Canadian Association of Elizabeth Fry Societies
Ed McIsaac  Director of Policy, John Howard Society of Canada
Lorraine Berzins  Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections
Richard Haughian  Vice-President, Church Council on Justice and Corrections
Pierre Gravel  Norbourg Victim, As an Individual
Ali Reza Pedram  As an Individual
Jackie Naltchayan  As an Individual
Howard Sapers  Correctional Investigator, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Ivan Zinger  Executive Director and General Counsel, Office of the Correctional Investigator
Stephen Fineberg  President, Association des avocats et avocates en droit carcéral du Québec
Jacinthe Lanctôt  Vice-President, Association des avocats et avocates en droit carcéral du Québec
Mary Campbell  Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

7:55 p.m.

Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mary Campbell

I have most of that information. It's part of my responsibility to consider costs in terms of developing legislation. Yes, I have most of that information or access to it. The issue is disclosure of it. As I said, government has indicated it's a cabinet confidence.

7:55 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

So you've provided the information to the government about what it would cost for these changes?

7:55 p.m.

Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mary Campbell

I said I have the information or access to it. I really can't talk about what I've provided the government in any detail because I think that is cabinet confidence of advice.

7:55 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

So if the government asked you, in theory, to provide it, you would be able to answer that question for them?

7:55 p.m.

Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mary Campbell

I think I'm able to answer almost all questions that I'm asked about legislative proposals.

7:55 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Yesterday and today in the House of Commons we asked the government questions about costing and all those questions were ignored. They wouldn't provide the answers. You would agree with me that if the government wanted to disclose to Parliament, the representatives of the people, what this would cost, they could?

7:55 p.m.

Director General, Corrections and Criminal Justice Directorate, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness

Mary Campbell

I don't think I can speak for what the government would want to do or could do. I have a position as a public servant and I've given you the best possible answer I can.

7:55 p.m.

Liberal

Andrew Kania Liberal Brampton West, ON

Mr. MacKenzie, who has stepped out of the room, was reading a very long piece there. Unfortunately, he's not here, but I'd like to say to him that I agree. We agree with that piece. Everybody here, from all parties...we have no sympathy for the Earl Jones situation. We don't want to see him released.

There's a part that he was reading where he said, “little incentive in our current Criminal Code”. We agree with that as well. I think what the person meant was that the current law is not strong enough. We agree with that too.

Just so you all know, in terms of the victims, we sympathize with you, we're with you, we agree with you. The Liberal Party tried, with Bill C-21, dealing with white-collar crime, to amend the law in the justice committee last fall so that Mr. Lacroix would not be released and to eliminate the one-sixth accelerated parole for all serious-type fraudsters. The Bloc and the Conservatives voted against that. This could have been resolved last fall. It's not. That's why we're here now.

During the second prorogation of Parliament, we had a white-collar crime forum in Parliament, when Parliament was shut down. I co-chaired it. We investigated a number of things and made proposals to the government.

I'm going to ask you, do you agree with these? Do you agree that there should be more money for enforcement to avoid these kinds of situations? I assume you all agree. Anybody disagree? I don't see any hands.

More money for investigation? You're nodding your heads yes. I assume you all agree. There's been nothing about that.

Restitution orders? For those of you who have lost money, there should be automatic restitution orders. Judges should say, “This person owes you a certain amount of money. You don't have to go to court. You don't have to sue. You don't have to spend money on lawyers.” The victims are nodding their heads yes. You agree with that. The government has done nothing about that.

Increased sentences? Mr. Jones received 11 years for this. Why is the maximum not 20 years, for example? Why is it not tougher? You agree with that. We suggested that during the last time. And I see all the victims nodding yes, he should get more. Well, we agree with you. He should get more.

Tax credits? Ms. Naltchayan, you mentioned that. Well, you know what? The Liberal Party said that in January 2010. We said, “Why aren't we doing something about tax credits to make sure that persons who were defrauded would get some type of treatment from CRA?” We said that. Where's that legislation? That's not here at all.

I see everybody nodding their heads. Yes, those are all good ideas. Well, we suggested that a long time ago.

After the Conservatives and the Bloc voted against amendments that would have kept Mr. Lacroix in prison back last fall, here we are now discussing this through an undemocratic method, not getting proper advice, and not having an opportunity to have a full study. That's why we're objecting to this. That's the only reason we're objecting to this.

8 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Kania.

We'll now move back to Mr. Norlock.

February 15th, 2011 / 8 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for being here. It's always interesting to note that the Liberals would do a whole lot of things, but in the 13 years they were in government, none of these issues were approached. That's what we're trying to correct here. We're just starting.

It's interesting to note that when all the statistics were being read about the people who were eligible for parole and what it would all mean, we were thinking that these are people who are trying to get their lives back on track. But the one thing Mr. Gravelle said that really struck a chord with me was that one person caused havoc with over 9,000 direct victims, and those 9,000 victims have husbands, wives, children, and friends.

Then I listened to Mr. Ali Reza Pedram, and we heard it was about 158 people. Just dealing with the one victim, that person is eligible for parole after one-sixth of his time, but you work five, six, seven days a week, 18 hours a day. There's no pantheon of social workers telling you that you are the victim and asking what kinds of services they can offer you. You can get some services through your health plan, but you are probably too busy trying to pay back the banks what you have lost through a criminal act of a person.

Madam Jackie, you said more than once that you don't have a whole pantheon of highly paid people, both in government and advocates on behalf of the very people who have defrauded you, and pantheons of studies. All you know is that there is a huge void in your life and in the lives of many people like you.

My friend next to me just made a very good statement that we wouldn't need extra prisons and all these extra things if people didn't commit crimes. When they commit crimes, we worry so much about why they committed the crimes. We need to treat them. As I said, we have a responsibility as legislators that if we are going to put people in prison, we have to give them the tools so that when they get out of prison they don't have to go back to prison. But that doesn't mean we have to enable them to keep doing these things. We need to say, “What you did is wrong. You are going to pay your debt to society, and we as a society are going to help you get better.”

Does that mean we have done everything we can do? No. Our government actually started the very study that Mr. Davies talked about. It was commissioned by our government. They asked this committee to please look at this. We're not afraid to look at it, but we're saying that before anything else happens, we have to listen to the victims. We have to know how they feel, and we have to do something about that.

I'm a practising Christian, and I don't know too many in my congregation or my wife's congregation who think we're going down the wrong path. There are things you want to say in areas like this that you can't say. But lighting a bonfire and playing the guitar singing Kumbaya is not going to make the world better. We will make the world better, quite frankly, when we listen to victims and try to balance the need for people to feel that they've.... You mentioned that you have figuratively been raped. That's a serious thing.

Mr. Gravelle, would you like to talk about some of the experiences that you know some of your friends have gone through as victims?

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Norlock, you've left him about 25 seconds.

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON

I apologize, sir.

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Make it very short.

8:05 p.m.

Norbourg Victim, As an Individual

Pierre Gravel

I met many people who were defrauded by Lacroix. They were in a very bad situation. They still are. Where's the money?

8:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Gravel.

Now we'll go to Monsieur Ménard.

Welcome.

You have five minutes.

8:05 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Ménard Bloc Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, QC

Thank you. That isn't much time.

First of all, I want to quickly extend my warmest thanks to all of you for being here this evening.

Personally, I have been wondering, since 1966, what prompts people to commit a crime. I know that there are many different answers to that, but I don't believe fear of prison is the main answer, and that has been my conviction for a long time. I sincerely believe that we focus too much on prison in Canada. In any case, our incarceration rate is higher than the other countries we like to compare ourselves to. And yet, I am the one who initially tabled this bill, and I will explain why. I would like to have your agreement at the appropriate time.

We can compare ourselves to two countries. Every year, King's College in London measures the incarceration rate in 216 countries. Last year, Canada had 127 inmates per 100 000; in the U.S., whom we compare ourselves to, it was 743; for Russia, 582. Canada was ranked 123rd out of 216 countries. So, we are a little below the middle of the pack. Let's look at comparable countries. In New Zealand, the rate is 203; that is high. But let's look at the European countries: for France, the rate is 96; Germany, 88; Sweden, 78; Denmark, 71. In Japan, it is 62. The incarceration rate in Finland is even lower.

So, we could therefore place less emphasis on incarceration, although when you listen to the victims and public opinion in general, I believe we are all prepared to accept a system which is reasonable when we understand its rationale. And part of the rationale which the general public accepts is the fact that sentences are set by judges who are independent, educated and impartial, who sentence an accused after hearing from both parties and considering either extenuating or aggravating circumstances. Furthermore, I have not heard many victims complain about the sentences handed down by judges.

Indeed, I believe it is possible to convince judges to reduce incarceration and give them the means to do that effectively, if people believe in it. However, when a judge follows the process, hands down a sentence and that sentence is then divided by six, the public no longer understands.

With the support of my party, I introduced a bill in June of 2007 aimed at abolishing the almost automatic granting of early parole. Because, that is indeed what we're talking about here. I presented that plan in June of 2007, but the government did nothing. I then tabled a bill on September 14, 2009, proposing that this practice be abolished. The government responded by introducing another bill in October of 2009, but did not follow up on it. So, I again tabled a bill in 2010, but that was not enough to spur the government into action. When it witnessed the revolt against the judicial system, a perfectly understandable revolt against the way sentencing works — and much of the revolt in Quebec is led by victims — it began to react. It's really quite something to see government members attempting to take the credit for this change in attitude.

I hear your arguments to the effect that prison is expensive and is not always effective. I agree; I, personally, am convinced of that, but that is not what we're talking about here. We are talking about a practice whereby the sentence handed down by qualified judges, after hearing the parties, is almost automatically divided by six. What we are talking about is that quasi-automatic practice.

I expect to receive your support when we begin considering other government bills, such as the one intended to prevent violent and dangerous offenders from serving their sentence at home, and which is an insult to the judiciary. The fact is that judges do not have the right to hand down sentences to violent and dangerous offenders that can be served at home. Why are they introducing a bill to do something like that? It's an insult to the judiciary. Furthermore, it will unnecessarily cause a fluctuation in the incarceration rate. It will reduce the number of sentences served at home, even though this is a very common practice in European countries and one which has a beneficial effect on crime.

So, I expect to receive your support with respect to these other bills. However, in this case, you have to realize that we need the public to understand and approve of an incarceration rate comparable to the one in Japan or France, something that will happen provided that the public feels that justice is being done and there is a rationale behind the decisions that are being handed down. There is no such rationale behind the practice of almost automatically dividing the sentence by six, and that discredits our entire judicial system.

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Monsieur Ménard.

We'll move back to the government, to Mr. McColeman.

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

Thank you, and I thank the witnesses.

Ms. Berzins, as part of your testimony you talked about blind complacency in the use of prisons. I think it was in the context of your having many concerns with the overall direction of our government's legislation. Is that correct?

8:10 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

Yes, it was actually a quote—

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

I just want to know if it's correct.

8:10 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

It was a quote from a commentator in the United States, who used that term about their use of prisons. I am saying that we are going in the same direction.

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

You agree with it, then.

8:10 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

8:10 p.m.

Conservative

Phil McColeman Conservative Brant, ON

And you agree with the fact that our government is heading in the wrong direction with the types of bills we're introducing.

8:10 p.m.

Community Chair of Justice, Church Council on Justice and Corrections

Lorraine Berzins

I think we use prison as a symbol without realizing in real life what it does and what it does not do to help victims.