Public Safety Committee on March 30th, 2010

[John Leeman]

To drive any vehicle on the property, you need to have your driver's licence, even if you're plowing the fields. It's part of the reintegration. It's a tool. It makes the guy feel.... I watched guys drive up and down those farm fields and look back and feel a day of accomplishment. The guy sees what he has done, and that's rewarding for somebody who has never worked in his life, and they learned it from the staff there--not only what to do, but how to communicate. That's one of the big things.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

And you found an employer who would employ you before you had the licence, is that what I heard you say?

[John Leeman]

No, I'm just saying that it wouldn't be wise to go right out to the street; you wouldn't have a job. What they've done is that if you want to drive a tractor on the farm, you have to get your driver's licence. Do you see what I'm saying? It's heavy equipment. These guys drive some pretty heavy equipment around there for snowplowing and working around the wall on the outside and keeping all the snow away so the farm trucks and everything else can move, so the staff can get into the institution.

So guys are learning trades, and believe me, a lot of guys would like to go out on a pass with the staff and say they'd like to get their licence, because they want to learn how to drive heavy equipment on the farm. That doesn't just take it to the farm; this guy can do some heavy equipment out in the community. There's a lot of stuff out there it could go to.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Okay. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

I have a brief question. I don't know who can answer this. About how many hours per day would be spent by an inmate working on the farms compared to the hours they would spend in other places like a workshop for welding or something like that. Does anybody know how intensive the farm program is compared to the other programs?

[Dave Perry]

In my particular shop, we have a punch clock, so the hours are definitely documented. They average seven and a half to eight hours a day. Two days a week they're allowed to work late because the staff work late. If they do stay after a certain hour, we notify security that we're keeping inmates late. It's only if they want to. We don't have any who refuse those extra hours.

Some other shops, such as janitorial work or cleaning jobs and kitchen jobs, probably have half that many hours. For some places they just touch the doorknob, show up, say they're present, and go back to their cell and read a book or sleep.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

So it would be a much more intensive work program.

Thank you very much.

We will now come back to the Liberal Party, with Mr. Easter, please. This is a five-minute round.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank everyone who is a witness, and those who are in the room as well, who have fought this fight for a considerable length of time, which shows a lot of community support.

I would submit to you, Mr. Chair, that if this committee can't look at this issue objectively and save either all or some of the farms, then I really seriously feel that what we've seen is an affront to democracy. I think this is the people speaking up with the evidence that the government should reconsider and change its decision.

My first question is to Ron and Dave. I want to congratulate you--I've been on your operations--on the job you've been able to do. Mr. MacKenzie, at the last meeting, in questioning the timing of this, said his understanding was that you're a year and a week and a half away from being closed.

Ron and Dave, I'm not criticizing him for making that statement. We're already seeing a phasing down, are we not? And if we hit June, these dairy herds are gone. Once gone, we cannot bring them back.

[Dave Perry]

At Pittsburgh, we have a feedlot sitting empty now. It will not be filled up. Greenhouses were cleaned out of poinsettias the day before Christmas; they have not been restocked.

The only part of the agribusiness that's currently operating is the abattoir at Pittsburgh Institution. I believe there are about 1,800 acres of property there. It'll probably be rented out to an area farmer, or some of it will sit vacant. I'm not sure.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

So time is definitely of the essence.

I just want to lay some facts on the table, Mr. Chair. I was hopeful that with the new minister maybe there'd be a reconsideration. There obviously wasn't, because the same statement came out within very few days, before I think the minister even had a proper review of the files. Neither the previous minister nor the current minister has visited the farms. After questioning the head of CORCAN and senior officials the other day, I'm very doubtful if they've visited them or spent very much time there.

We're seeing questionable numbers in terms of the costs. As for the $4 million, to be quite honest, I don't believe it. The strategic study on which this decision was made is not available. We haven't seen it, you haven't seen it, and this committee does not have access to it. We don't even know if it looks at the whole system or just the economics in terms of the numbers without rehabilitation.

They admit that 14 people went to jobs, but they divide that into $4 million and say that it cost $285,000 for the creation of a job. So I would ask one of you to answer this: do others who come off the farm have jobs? Do they get jobs? The numbers from Shelly Glover the other day indicate a very expensive cost there, but I'm assuming that others got jobs. I'll come back to that in a minute.

The corrections officials quoted job numbers for other industries, but admitted under questioning that they never even talked to the Canadian Agricultural Human Resource Council, which is about farm jobs. We were told by them that 39,000 farm workers will be needed in 2013 in seasonal positions. In fact, we're depending on foreign labourers in those areas now. They never even talked to that, which goes to show that they're using the numbers for their own purposes.

As well, the officials here the other day were not aware that in the United States.... I certainly don't favour their criminal justice system, but at least in the San Francisco area they are now turning to farming crops for rehabilitative reasons, and they admit that those numbers show recidivism is down.

Those are the facts.

So really, my question is in terms of the numbers that go through the farm system. Do they find jobs when they get out? Those jobs may not be in the farming industry, but do they find jobs when they get out?

[Dave Perry]

I can tell you that of at least three inmates I recently trained and released, one is currently delivering milk to stores and a local restaurant not too far from the prison. I see him there weekly. He's driving a truck; he's bringing milk to those businesses. He's reliable enough to do that. He doesn't have anybody with him watching him. Another is working in a chain store in Kingston. He was trained in meat cutting. He's working part-time in meat cutting and part-time in stocking shelves. Another is working at a local lumberyard, a RONA business. As I say, wherever I go in Ontario, in any city.... I just came back from London on the weekend. I saw one there. I trained him a couple of years ago.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

I have one more question.

I think it's fair to say, David--

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Your time is up.

[Wayne Easter, Liberal, Malpeque, PE]

--that they are finding jobs in the system.

Mr. Chair, I think members of this committee have to challenge the government to do the right thing. Maybe we even need to look at the farms ourselves, because if you go there, I think you'll understand how important this program is.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you.

Mr. McColeman, please.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I too want to underscore my thanks to the panel members for being here and presenting today.

My background is construction. That's where I made my living for most of my working life. I couldn't help but be struck by something that came up in our last group, and something that I did a little bit more research on.

You can look it up yourself; it's on the CBC website. It relates the story of a group of inmates in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, building a house for a family in need in the Lac La Ronge Indian Band. That's the beginning of the story.

This was a minimum security establishment. Earlier--I'll just allude to this for a moment--we had a member across the table somewhat minimize the building of a birdhouse. I think there should be no minimization of any skill set that comes across--

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, in fairness, to be very clear, I stated that I do not minimize it at all. As for what I said, I asked why there was a different treatment of woodworking or building birdhouses relative to agriculture, where the question about how many people go from that to getting jobs isn't asked.

My question was about why there is a different treatment of different programs. I at no point... In fact, if you look at the record in the blues, I was very clear about the importance of those programs and others. My point was they don't need to be in exclusion of agriculture.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You've made your point, Mr. Holland. Thank you.

Mr. McColeman.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

Thank you for letting me continue, Mr. Chair.

So of the 19 people who were involved in the skills training in construction, 19 have already finished their sentences, all 19, and landed employment in the construction trades, according to the Correctional Service of Canada. Again, this is from the CBC website.

Among them was a fellow named Jessie Hoover, who said the most complicated project he had ever worked on prior to the house was a birdhouse. He's now an apprentice working in the community framing houses. He said:

Some of the skills that I learned in this project would be, you know, good work ethic, coming to work on time, working hard when you're at work, plus the carpentry side of it, learning how to frame the house from the ground up.

I bring that point up because we also have a list of job placements of the 2,500 offenders who were mentioned earlier. The construction trades, by far and away, have the top ranking. Some of the others are: chefs; cooks; butchers; metal forming/shaping and erecting trades; welders and blacksmiths; automotive/autobody service technicians and mechanics; carpenters, cabinet-makers, and related retail and sales occupations; and professional occupations in social sciences, education, government, and retail. The list is longer.

One of the most rehabilitative, healing things we've witnessed in the prisons we've all attended is that having something meaningful to do gives you a sense of accomplishment, and nothing's better for that than having a job.

Thank you, Mr. Leeman, for being here and witnessing to us on that front. That takes great courage on your part.

[John Leeman]

Thank you.

[Phil McColeman, Conservative, Brant, ON]

I truly appreciate you sharing your story with us in more depth.

So my view is not to diminish the value of farming, because I come from a riding where there's a lot of farming, and I meet with farmers on a regular basis. Certainly there are life skills that are gained on the farm. None of this is very black and white in my mind--that one doesn't do it and the other one does. That somehow creeps into these discussions. But as we go through and see inmates and where their lives are going and try to have rehabilitative programming that really works and makes them marketable when they come out, I really have questions about which is the best way to go.

I'll quickly relate to you one other story. One of the best carpenters I ever had on my crews was an aboriginal person who had spent time in a penitentiary. He came to work and gave me full value.

So I'll put this to you and anyone who'd like to respond, but I guess the person I'd really like to ask is Mr. McDermott, because he seems very experienced and learned in many areas, especially the areas of aboriginals and integration. We know there aren't these types of facilities--corrective farms--in Quebec or B.C. We know there are other jurisdictions, yet we have great stories about other areas. For the sake of discussion, what is your view on ramping it up to give them the real marketable trades I'm mentioning here today?

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Go ahead.

[Larry McDermott]

Thank you for the question.

I think it's like you've said. By the way, I also made some of my income in the construction industry in the past. I think what you're saying about developing skills that will help you in finding employment afterwards is not a black and white situation. I agree with you 100%.

What I would say is that in terms of focusing on the farms themselves, and in terms of aboriginal culture relating to life, the cultural value of working with animals and plants is a special opportunity, not only to develop some of those marketable skills but also to practise your culture.

I grew up on a farm and I know that I learned a variety of skills. I learned block-laying and I learned plumbing. You had to. You had to know all of those things.

I was appointed by the Conservative government in Ontario to the Eastern Ontario Smart Growth Panel, and Mr. Holland's list intrigued me, because it was very similar to our list. Truck drivers were at the top, although actually the average block-layer or bricklayer in Ontario, at that time anyway, was approaching 60 years old. We have a vacuum when it comes to skilled trades. In fact, when we looked at it, we were appalled.

So for me, it's both; the farm produces a variety of skills.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Mr. Bellavance, please.

[André Bellavance, Bloc, Richmond—Arthabaska, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In my riding, there is a municipality called Warwick, where there is an alternative school called Fermentière; it is a farm. There are no prison farms in Quebec. But I would say that the principles applied in those prisons are the same as at Fermentière. It is attended by young people who are 15 to 17 years old. They are not necessarily delinquents, they are young people having trouble learning, who have behavioural problems or lack motivation. This is the kind of young people who go to the farm.

The testimony I am hearing here about prison farms sounds a lot like what is done for those young people. Certainly they are going to learn punctuality, responsibility, autonomy and initiative. And of course they are going to take courses relating to farm work, but also courses in mechanics, cooking and carpentry, and regular courses—mathematics, French and English.

So they are able to come out with a diploma of vocational studies or a diploma of secondary studies, or go on to study at cégep. The school is rather phenomenally successful. The Commission scolaire des Bois-Francs, which operates the farm, is very pleased with the results. So I can make a comparison with the testimony I have heard here.

Mr. Perry, how many years have you been an instructor at a prison farm?