Public Safety Committee on March 30th, 2010

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Mr. Perry.

[Dave Perry]

A lot of these inmates learn to operate equipment while they're on the farms. They've never driven anything in their life. They can operate front-end loaders, tractors, and trucks at Frontenac Institution, heavy trucks. I know that several have gone out and got jobs on highway crews. There's a construction firm doing the 401 expansion and the guy has a farm in Renfrew that I know quite well. When he's interviewing a new applicant, his first question is, "Have you ever had farm experience?"

Many of these inmates are going to have jobs when they get out. The ones who aren't working on the farms, who are sitting in their cells, don't have the ambition to even look for a job. But these inmates are on a schedule, they're used to working, and they're going to go right out and continue to work when they hit the street.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

Thank you.

If I may, Mr. Edmunds--

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Very briefly, please.

[Mark Holland, Liberal, Ajax—Pickering, ON]

--you mentioned the issue of costs. Right now we're being told that no one is going to be laid off.

We have to source all of the eggs and all of the milk for Ontario, Quebec, and the Maritimes, so that could come from anywhere. It could come from Mexico or from the United States; we don't know because it's subject to NAFTA.

All of these facilities are going to be vacant buildings. As well, you'll have to replace all of these programs with new programs.

Can you see anywhere they could even conceivably save money by cancelling this program?

[John Edmunds]

No. As soon as you take away something you grow yourself, produce yourself, distribute yourself and then you have to go out to the fair market value to purchase, there is an additional cost.

In reviewing the tapes from last week, I noticed that the people from the Correctional Service talked about apprenticeships inside the institution; that's going to be the big replacement for the farm. I have a concern with that because of what's going on with the apprenticeships, in that employees of Correctional Service Canada can not sign off hours for inmates on an apprenticeship. There was a lawsuit a few years ago in Ontario. I'm from a plumbing background and I tried to sign up an offender that I had working for me at the Kingston Prison for Women. The government will have nothing to do with that.

So I'm a little concerned about, first, the costs that are going to be faced by your institutions, and then the lack of programming that is going to be in the institutions, because it's not there at this point in time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We'll go over to the Bloc Québécois.

Monsieur Desnoyers, go ahead, sir.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am pleased to have you here and hear what you have to say, finally.

I have to say that this was something I was not familiar with, prison farms. When Sister Pauline Lally says they have a 150-year history, I think the reason the program has survived to today is that it must have positive effects in Canadian and Quebec society, given the number of people who must have gone through this kind of program.

We are told, with the statistics to show it, that over 4,668 inmates have gone through the prison farms. If we come back to the apprenticeship program Mr. Edmunds was just talking about, and I also noted what Mr. Leeman said, they talked about welding, mechanics, and in some documents, communications work, computer work, and of course agriculture, shipping and receiving, and heavy equipment repair. When I look at all that, having worked for over 30 years in labour relations, as the head of a union, I can say that these are trades that are in demand everywhere in society.

If people come out with apprenticeships in these areas, we will be building a much more just society for these inmates getting out of prison, who are often looking for jobs. It is not always easy, because not everyone is prepared to accept a former inmate. But when they come with such significant apprenticeships, I think that counts. I found it very striking to see the results described by nearly everyone around this table.

There is one question I would like to ask, and I don't know whom I should put it to. You have talked a lot about the economic benefits for the immediately surrounding communities. For the region immediately around Kingston, you talked about major economic benefits for farmers and for the communities in all their forms. Prisons buy a lot of things in the community, from what I understand. We haven't been able to get figures so we can see what impact the economic benefits might have in society in general.

I mention economic benefits because I have been told that it costs $4 million, when the result, when people get out, when they find themselves back in society and start to pay taxes immediately, is significant. It is profitable for society when they start paying taxes immediately. The little $4 million extra it may cost can sometimes bring in a lot more in terms of social benefits. If we take it away, if we put them in normal prisons, excuse the expression, and just let them stagnate there, it's counter-productive, particularly when they are getting close to leaving prison.

This question could be for Mr. Leeman. What effect did this kind of program have on you when you got out? How did you integrate into society?

On the question of economic benefits, maybe Mr. Edmunds could respond to that from the perspective of various communities.

And for a response from an academic, Mr. Flanagan could explain the pedagogical impact of this kind of training in prison.

So that makes three questions for three people.

[John Leeman]

In terms of the equipment you were just talking about and driving the heavy equipment, as the farmer was saying, when I got out, my first job was working for a local moving company. It was a coincidence, because when I walked onto the job,nobody was driving all the heavy trucks there. They were all five-ton trucks or tractor-trailers.

As we say, if you have enhanced clearance on property and they know you're not going to take off, there are trucks that you can drive. You learn in there. That experience is what I'm saying I utilize today as one of those examples. I went out to a local company and I've been driving a five-ton truck for the last five and a half years.

It was the work ethic on the farm and getting up in the morning.... We all know that moving companies start at about six o'clock in the morning so they can be at your house at seven, and that work ethic falls into the category of getting up and being punctual out in the community. Again, I took the tools out with me, and I utilize them out there on a daily basis. I hope that answers your question.

[Bill Flanagan]

I can speak to the question of the impact that it has on the law school.

As I mentioned, we have a correctional law program that we've had for well over 30 years. Every year 18 students are involved. They're working in the prisons advising inmates. In fact, today I was chatting with one of the people who came up from Kingston, Caroline Yull, a former student of mine, who participated in the correctional law program. She was telling me the story of many of the inmates she worked with who worked on the prison farms and telling me about the impact of that, the importance of it, and how much it was of assistance to the inmates in terms of their own rehabilitation.

You've heard this, of course, from the other witnesses. Frequently these inmates will have a history of violent crime. They may never have cared for a living thing before in their lives, and they're having an opportunity to work with animals in animal husbandry. It's well documented in all of the literature that this has a very positive rehabilitative effect on inmates. I think that our own students working in the correctional law project have seen this first-hand. They have seen the value of the prison farms in terms of the inmates they are advising on other legal matters. This has, I think, been a powerful experience for our students.

[John Edmunds]

Could I ask you to repeat your question?

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I don't know who could answer that question. I thought you could do it. The prison farm has to buy a lot of materials. I imagine you buy a lot in the community surrounding the prison, be it fertilizer or mechanical parts to repair vehicles that break down. What would the economic impact be in the Kingston region if it were decided to close down the prison farm tomorrow? Would it have a major impact?

[John Edmunds]

In Kingston, there is an impact of approximately $900,000 per year to the city and to surrounding businesses. That doesn't include all the other institutions--Riverbend Institution in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, or Rockwood in Winnipeg, or down in Dorchester. They're all medium-sized communities that have a large base.

When you have a major purchaser such as the federal prison farms, it gives the farmers the ability, through the farms, to get seeds and parts at a discounted prices, because there's volume. There's stuff being used in the community. On that particular aspect, as I said, there has been some exploration in Kingston. It's a loss of approximately $900,000 to the City of Kingston.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We'll have to move on now to the NDP.

Go ahead, Mr. Davies.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

In Vancouver there's a building near my riding that has a slogan painted on it. I'll paraphrase that slogan. It says that you should never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. I just want to say to all of you that this phrase has really been rendered real for me today.

I want to point out, as my colleague did, that when I look at the people speaking, I see community members, ex-inmates, law professors, nuns, prison guards, farmers, first nations, municipal officials, correctional officials--

[A voice]

And voters.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Yes, and voters.

I just think you couldn't get a more representative group of people. I commend all of you for being here.

The other thing I want to mention is that I had a town hall meeting in January in my riding and I invited people from my community to come and tell me what they thought. One of the things someone said to me was they wanted government to be more nimble and responsive. It was kind of vague to me. Again, that has been rendered very real for me here today, because I think this is a classic example.

I'm going to do something unusual in politics. I'm going to try to be kind and gentle to all of us. On the other side, representing the government, there are good people, people who care, and people who are intelligent, as we all are.

What I think is that in government sometimes we make a mistake. Sometimes we make a wrong policy move. I think the real test of a democratic responsive government, a test of its maturity, is to be able to say, “You know what? I think maybe we made a mistake here. We're taking the wrong direction.”

I'm hoping that all of us as parliamentarians listen to the absolutely overwhelming voice of people here who are telling us that this decision to close the prison farms is simply wrong.

I also want to say that--I'll declare my bias right now--not only am I opposed to closing prison farms, but here's a news alert: I'm for opening more prison farms in this country. As for the reason for that, I can't say it any better than the people I've heard from today, you people who know so much about this.

I also want to point out that there's a philosophy underlying this. Often we have a vision of prison as a place of punishment and a place of vocational training. There's another philosophy that says it's a place of correction, a place of rehabilitation, and a place of healing. I think sometimes there is overlap there. But fundamentally I'm always reminded that we call this “Corrections Canada“, not “Punishment Canada”.

I think the main thing we can do as policy setters is to make sure, as one of you said, that when someone goes into prison, they come out a better person. If we can give them skills along the way, that's good. But that's not the primary purpose of prison. It's not a vocational training centre. It's a healing centre. Providing vocational skills is only part of it.

I'm struck by this thought: what could be healthier? What could be more rehabilitative? What could be more healing than to be working on a farm, connecting with the land, working outside, working with animals, and working with nature?

I want to focus a little bit on the work with animals. I was elected in October 2008, so I've been elected for 18 months. In that time, I have visited 14 prisons in Canada and three outside Canada, so that's 17 prisons in four countries. One thing that has struck me repeatedly--and it sounds trite to say it--is that any program that uses animals is, I think, critically and profoundly important. That's because I think a lot of people entering our prisons are people who, by definition, have been broken in some way. They have emotional difficulties attaching. So I think attaching through animals is a safe and rehabilitatively sound way to go.

I also want to point out that this is not just an issue of concern to Kingstonians, as important as you are. This is an issue that's important to Canadians across this country. This is what I think prison farms do. They provide local, self-sufficient, and sustainable food development. They provide self-sustaining food for prisons.

They are therapeutic. They are rehabilitative. They provide skills and training. They are liked by inmates and correctional staff alike. The program provides pride, honour, and spiritual development, and there's a community connection.

I know that I'm doing all the talking, and I'm not going to ask a question because I can't say it any better than all of you. I think what we need to do is listen to what you're saying.

It is that last component of community connection that I think is so critical; 96% of people who go to prisons come out, so we need our communities to go into prisons, and we need people to be coming out of prisons into the community. That's what strikes me as being so successful about the prison farm system: it is one of the few programs that involves the community.

We heard that this government is going to increase funding by 25% in operational funding, by 25% in staffing, and by 43% in capital expenditures, and this at a time when they have said departments are going to hold the line. These are the increases in corrections. I agree that finding $4 million a year--in fact, finding $8 million a year and doubling the prison farms--represents not only sound policy in our country but also something that politicians of every stripe from every party in every community should be pursuing, because it makes our communities safer and our inmate populations healthier.

I have a question. It's the one question I will ask.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

The other side is going tell you one thing. I think the other side understands these arguments and I don't think they disagree with them, but there is one question they will ask you. They want to ask you about replacing this program with a targeted vocational training program, something that gives more direct training skills.

If any of you want to answer, I'd like to hear your response on that issue, because I think it's a fair question that my colleagues have asked.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

We have seven seconds left. Who wants to take it on?

Go ahead, Mr. Edmunds.

[John Edmunds]

We've done that in the past.

As I said, I am from the Correctional Service of Canada. I cut my teeth there, as a plumber at a prison for women in Kingston. There were vocational shops, and through the years, the government closed those down.

The biggest vocational shops we have left now are the farms. I'm saying there are still some vocational shops, but at this point in time, that's what's left. I can't see the reason for throwing out the baby with the bathwater, with the farm, when the farm gives you the vocational training as well as the produce to use inside our institutions.

There have been great debates in this forum, in this building, around Kyoto and going green and the 100 miles. This program gives the government the ability to lead and to show by example that it's trying to make government, at least in the form of the Correctional Service of Canada, self-sufficient. They can start to grow their own food and expand the program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Garry Breitkreuz]

Thank you very much.

We shall now go over to the government side.

Go ahead, Mr. MacKenzie, please.

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the panel for being here today.

I have some numbers. I don't know if anybody can confirm them, but if you can, or if you have a different number, please feel free to tell me. The farms are located at Westmorland Institution, with 50 inmates; at Pittsburgh Institution, with 29 inmates; at Frontenac Institution, with 41 inmates; at Rockwood Institution, with 26 inmates; at Riverbend Institution, with 44 inmates; and at Bowden in Alberta, with 30 inmates. That was as of February 1, 2010. Do those numbers sound correct?

[John Edmunds]

Are you asking for the population of the institutions, sir, or of those involved in the program?

[Dave MacKenzie, Conservative, Oxford, ON]

I'm asking how many inmates are working on the farm.