Public Safety Committee on April 15th, 2010

[Ian McPhail]

I would say that it is independence and the resources to do the job.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Mr. Kennedy also expressed concern with respect to the use of force with tasers. Having visited the depot in Winnipeg, one of the things that concerned me, which has been raised by others, is the fact that in the use-of-force training on the continuum of force, tasers are not included. Often, when people are leaving the depot, they get separate training on tasers. It's not included in that continuum of force when they're actually at the depot getting their initial training. There's confusion as to where that fits in.

I'm interested in your comments in terms of the adequacy of the response of the government to concerns that have been raised in the wake of Mr. Dziekanski's death and other incidents. Specifically on that comment, have you had an opportunity to visit the depot, and if you have, what is your feeling about the training there on the use of force and on the use of tasers in the continuum?

[Ian McPhail]

Let me make a couple of comments with respect to tasers. First of all, there has to be a consistent policy across the country, and the RCMP should be the leader of that policy. I've noted that some provincial police forces are adopting policies.

But let me get to the point on training. One issue that disturbs me is that much of the training in the use of tasers is conducted by the manufacturer, and I don't believe that is appropriate. I believe the police forces themselves should be conducting that training.

In terms of when tasers should be used, there has to be a benchmark, and I would suggest that the benchmark should be an imminent apprehension of harm or physical danger to a member of the force.

As to who should use tasers, it's not right to send out an inexperienced officer, and our recommendation is that in urban areas, tasers should be used only by officers at the rank of corporal or higher. In rural areas they should be used only by members with at least five years of experience.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Because I'm tight on time, I will close with two very quick questions. First, you said there should be a consistent policy, and you used the word “should”. I would take that to mean you're inferring that such a policy doesn't exist today, correct?

[Ian McPhail]

I believe the RCMP has gone a long way towards establishing a consistent policy. I don't think they're there—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

That's not the same thing as having a consistent policy. Either they have one or they don't. They could be moving towards one, but that would infer they don't have one.

[Ian McPhail]

I think they have a consistent policy in many areas. I think there are additional areas where—

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

I think it's fair to say that Mr. Kennedy was decidedly stronger on that point.

My second question is about the inadequacy of training you identified. Is it your feeling, then, just to summarize your comments, that the training that currently exists with respect to the taser weapon is inadequate?

[Ian McPhail]

As I said, I don't believe it's appropriate for an outside body, in this case the manufacturer, to be providing that training.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Mr. Desnoyers, you now have the floor for five minutes.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

I would like to share my allotted time with my colleague.

From the outset, I have been hearing about the new mandate to come, but we have not gotten there yet. Thus, all kinds of things are being extrapolated whereas we know that various recommendations were made and that they should eventually be implemented. However, we do not yet know when the government will act. Thus, we are not sure of what will happen, but we clearly know that the commission has a mandate with regard to the RCMP. The SIRC, which deals with the mandate and the functioning of CSIS, has a very specific mandate. I hear that your mandate should eventually be broadened to try to cover that, but this is yet another extrapolation.

Let me come back to my colleague's question. How many complaints were filed before your commission last year? How were they divided up? How long did it take to settle these complaints?

[Ian McPhail]

For the specific numbers, Kevin, can I call on you?

[Kevin Brosseau, Senior Director, Operations, Commission for Public Complaints Against the Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I can tell you that for fiscal year 2008-09, the commission received 1,692 complaints from the public about the RCMP. That information is available in our annual report on the commission's website, complaintscommission.ca or

commissiondesplaintes.ca

We have yet to compile the full statistics for fiscal year 2009-10, as that fiscal year just ended, but I have been advised that those numbers are slightly up again. So they would roughly be about 1,800, but we certainly can provide those numbers to you in the future.

Again, those complaints generally cover a cross-section of the way the RCMP interacts with the public, and oftentimes concern attitude, neglect of duty, and the use of force, etc. So the complaints cover a wide range of those matters.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

How many of these complaints were settled?

[Kevin Brosseau]

I can say that many of those complaints continue to be investigated, because there is always a lag, for instance. But of those complaints, the number of dissatisfied complainants who come to the commission and request a review is approximately 200. Those were the review reports and decisions Mr. McPhail just referred to, 40 of which he has written.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

Thus 200 complaints were settled out of 1,692.

[A voice]

There were 200 dissatisfied individuals.

[Luc Desnoyers, Bloc, Rivière-des-Mille-Îles, QC]

There were 200 dissatisfied individuals? I missed your—

[Kevin Brosseau]

I apologize, sir. It's probably the other way around, where those dissatisfied ones, the 200 out of the 1,800 or so, are coming to the commission. The large majority, I would say, are satisfied or settled.

However, we should keep in mind that the RCMP is also a point of intake for complaints. The CPC is one recipient, but the RCMP also receive complaints directly from the public, and they would be in a better position to tell you how many complaints they've received and how many of those they've settled.

[Roger Pomerleau, Bloc, Drummond, QC]

Mr. McPhail, your fourth recommendation deals with the control over the complaints process. It says here, and I quote: “The commission should have stewardship over the intake of complaints and review requests.” Is this your personal observation, or is this a wish that you are making because this stewardship, in your opinion, is not being properly handled?

On the other hand, you say that the commission must have the power to impose reasonable time limits. I imagine that this is because you have noticed that it cannot currently impose any reasonable time limits. Am I right?

[Ian McPhail]

Yes, the honourable member is quite correct. The commission doesn't have the ability to refuse a complaint if we're of the opinion that the complaint is frivolous, vexatious, or without merit, and we don't have the ability to require information from the RCMP within specific timelines.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Mark Holland]

Thank you.

Let us continue with Mr. Davies, who has five minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you, again.

At his appearance in March, the Minister of Public Safety stated that the new body for civilian oversight of the RCMP that he intends to establish would not be charged with investigating allegations of serious injuries or death involving RCMP members. Is it your understanding that the new body will not include that?

[Ian McPhail]

It's my understanding that it has not yet been determined whether there will be a new body separate and apart from the present commission or whether the commission will assume the additional oversight mandate. It would be my strong sense that the commission should be the basis of the new oversight agency.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

So it sounds like that issue is still to be determined, in your view. Is that your understanding?