No.
Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #10 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was inmates.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
All right, thank you, Mr. Scarpaleggia.
We'll go to Madam Morin.
12:45 p.m.
NDP
Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
I am not too sure who should answer this question. Maybe the person who knows best.
Earlier, we talked about violence and we said that it was often linked to drugs or brews. However, some witnesses have said that violence was not necessarily linked to drugs or brews and could also stem from drug trafficking, criminal gangs inside and outside the prison walls.
Do you agree with that?
12:45 p.m.
As an Individual
Well, if you're talking about gangs causing violence within the prison, gangs are funded. They live off the drug trade and prostitution.
Again, in our correctional centre we've had the occasional gang member, usually somebody who's come to the territory from the south. But for the most part, they're bullies. In Mr. Van De Mortel's case, where he was seriously assaulted, there were three people involved. One, I think, was an older gang member from years gone by, and the other one was just a bully.
Every bit of violence within the jail isn't always drug related. But if there is a fight between two inmates, and you dig into the reason for that fight, more often than not it stems back to an incident out on the street.
A lot of the people in our facility are related. A good majority of them come from Whitehorse. Most of them have known each other all their lives. So there are old wounds that haven't healed, and that could cause it as well. The violence, I think, pretty much overall in Whitehorse and in this country stems from drugs.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
12:50 p.m.
NDP
Marie-Claude Morin NDP Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC
Yes, I have another one.
You said earlier that you needed effective programs to fight addiction for all the inmates who want to participate in them. However, some inmates might not have enough motivation to enter those programs.
Do you have a solution to motivate the inmates who are not keen to enter the drug and rehabilitation programs?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
I think it's pretty tough to motivate somebody and make somebody take a drug treatment program. You'll see people who get sentenced in court, and part of their sentence is to abstain from alcohol. If they're outside and they're an addict, that's usually a recipe for disaster.
Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't go around the community and solicit people to come to their meetings. People have to make a conscious decision to attend those meetings. If they're not there for their own reasons, on their own motivation, then it's likely to fail.
Having said that, I know there are a lot of people within institutions who want the help. They don't like their lifestyle. There are some who like the lifestyle, the career criminals.
It's very tough to motivate people. People have to motivate themselves.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Mr. Aspin, very quickly. We just have a minute. We want to have at least three minutes for committee business.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
Jay Aspin Conservative Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON
As a new member of the committee, I would like to thank you for your unselfish and frank testimony this morning. It's been very helpful to me.
The one thing we've heard a lot of testimony about over the last month or so, the one thing that I really can't seem to get my head around, and perhaps you, gentlemen, can help me with, is the whole notion of drug debt in prisons.
Mr. Van De Mortel, could you help me with that, explain just how that works?
12:50 p.m.
As an Individual
How drug debt works? Either they owe money from the outside or they do pay someone to bring the drugs in and we do catch it. So they're out that money. Somebody owes somebody money for drugs they never received.
The same thing happens when they pass it around the dorms. People owe for drugs. If it gets brought in and distributed, somebody has to pay for it somehow. If they don't pay, they get their payment in another way, or they get motivated to pay.
12:50 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Again, the long trip was worth it. Thank you for coming from the Yukon and for giving us some personal experience stories that I think helped all members of all parties here. We want to thank you for that. We wish you both all the best as you both recover as well from the instances you've each explained in your stories and the consequences of them. We wish all the best to your families.
We're going to suspend just for a moment or two. That doesn't mean we're all going to get up and leave. Perhaps if Mr. Putnam and Mr. Van De Mortel want to wait in the back, or even if they want to wait out there, I know that some of our members would like to shake your hand and thank you for coming.
We do want to have about five minutes for committee business, just to set up for Thursday, if there are some questions as to what Thursday is going to look like, and there seem to be some questions.
We will suspend and reconvene in about 30 seconds.
I'll call us back to order. We don't have to go in camera on this.
Basically, my understanding is that I think I would like to see a steering committee fairly soon. It appears we may be getting some legislation. If that is the case, what I'm going to need is a list of witnesses, and I'm going to need it so that our clerks and analysts can prepare and get hold of some of these people so that when we come back from break week, we're going to have them here.
It's always been that we like to start out with the minister or the department and then go into our witnesses. So all parties, government and opposition parties, should be starting to put together a witness list.
Ms. Hoeppner.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
I think you're correct. I think we'll have a government bill before us by Thursday, and that does take precedence over any study we're doing. I would highly recommend we prepare now. Any time a bill is introduced, usually the very first witnesses are the officials and the minister. I think if they are willing to appear, it would be better to be prepared for that than have Thursday with nothing to do.
I think we should probably have a steering committee to plan out the bulk of the study, but we should ask if the minister can appear on Thursday. My understanding is that he is willing to do that.
12:55 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
Mr. Chair, we're open for bills coming in. However, it's very short notice with regard to having a bill and the minister speaking here in a couple of days. We would ask that we do the planning part of it on Thursday with regard to how we proceed with this, and the minister would appear the first day after the break week.
We've got a different critic for this particular bill, and we would also like to see the availability of that person for Thursday. I think we can definitely arrange it for the following week, but it may be difficult to do it this Thursday.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Candice Bergen Conservative Portage—Lisgar, MB
I don't think it was a surprise to anyone that this bill would be, first of all, coming to our committee and the timing of it. We've all been in the House of Commons and seen when the vote was coming up. I do respect that it's maybe a challenge for your particular critic, but there will be a lot of other opportunities, depending on how long the study is. I don't want to see Thursday wasted. It's completely normal, it's precedence, and it's expected that when a bill is referred to us we look at that bill. Again, I think Thursday would be the best day to have the minister here.
Here's the thing. I hate to see all of our time wasted because one of your members can't be here on Thursday. I think that's kind of the bottom line that I'm hearing. Again, it's not a completely unexpected bill. We all knew this bill was coming, that it would be coming to our committee, and we could all see what was going on in the House of Commons.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Norlock Conservative Northumberland—Quinte West, ON
Just a quick comment, Mr. Chair. Having been on this committee for five years, I can assure the members across the way that this issue has been thoroughly vetted in the previous Parliament. I would encourage you and your new critic to read the blues on previous testimony. I am extremely doubtful whether anyone would have anything additional to say, because this committee looked at that issue almost a year ago. I think it behooves us to be expeditious, because, quite frankly, this issue has been flogged to death by this Parliament.
12:55 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
One other thing. The minister will come for one hour. He may have a 10-minute presentation, he may have a 20-minute presentation. Then we will go into one round of a 10-minute....
I think we have it in the routine proceedings here. Isn't it if a minister is here, it's a higher number? I know in Foreign Affairs it was. Maybe it isn't then. Generally, it's one round.
The real in-depth questioning is after the minister comes and the witnesses start appearing. That's when it really gets going. The minister is here to kick it off, to explain his legislation, the whys, the whats, the whens.
Mr. Sandhu.
November 1st, 2011 / 1 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
I don't want to get into debate here, but all of us on this side are rookies to the Hill. Having said that, I know this bill has been studied to death. However, we represent our constituents. I think it's a responsible way for us to have a proper debate on this bill. I know there are rookies on both sides, so I think it's the only responsible way to represent them.
I know we've talked about this and we set up the rules for the committee at the beginning, and the rules state that we would require 48 hours' notice for the next committee meeting and witnesses. I believe this is not 48 hours.
1 p.m.
An hon. member
That's for a motion.
1 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Yes, that's for a motion. Legislation coming down the pike is not a motion. It's the mandate of the committee, basically, to look to that. Generally, when that begins, the opposition is clamouring to have the minister here first. He comes, he kicks it off, and away we go.
I think you had something else on that, Jasbir, but I may have cut you off.
1 p.m.
NDP
Jasbir Sandhu NDP Surrey North, BC
That's fine. I know there's a lot of material in this bill. The member across has correctly identified that there is quite a bit of material to be studied, and the blues are out there. We would like the opportunity to study those at least beyond the 48 hours.
