Public Safety Committee on Feb. 16th, 2012

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is a topic that I have a great deal of interest in, as co-founder of an immigrant and refugee centre in my own community some 20 years ago.

Both Mr. Hill and Ms. Kramer made comments about the changes that are being proposed, both in Bill C-4 and the bill was that was introduced today, whatever the number is, and how they might make the new system function more quickly. I'm not going to comment—neither here nor there—on whether that would be more justly: we'll have another time to debate that elsewhere.

But I believe both of you commented that if the system were operating more rapidly, electronic monitoring would become less useful as an alternative to consider. Is that correct? Is that a bit of an extension, maybe...?

[Peter Hill]

I would say that might be a bit of an extension.

We certainly believe—and we've been very much involved in the development of both pieces of legislation, the Balanced Refugee Reform Act and Bill C-4, in partnership with Citizenship and Immigration Canada—the new system will ensure faster decision-making, so that those in need will get the protection more quickly and those who are found not to be in need will be removed more quickly from the country.

That really doesn't negatively impact the potential use for EM. I would still say that the potential use for EM remains very strong, even under the new system, if and as it's implemented as intended.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

But I believe I heard Ms. Kramer say that maybe in that case it might not be the most cost-effective if things were faster...?

[Peter Hill]

I think that's right. I think what we're looking at is a range of measures. I think what we've found to date is that EM has been effective in our security certificate cases, in serious criminality, but I would defer to my colleague to add other remarks.

[Susan Kramer]

I'd just like to add that normally for refugee claimants, or for other inadmissible people as well, they're very compliant, up until the end, okay? It's at the end that we lose that 90% of the people.

It may not always be the best solution when someone has been compliant all along to use a heavy-handed approach, because you have no reason to do so. The person has been compliant all along, at every stage. It's at the end, when it's time to go, that people abscond.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

If I can just turn to the 44,000 who seem to be the main topic of concern, Mr. Hill, I think you said earlier that about 80% of them are low security, low criminal threat, so it's not a large group of people who provide a direct threat to Canadians in any way.

[Peter Hill]

That's right. About 80% of those cases have no criminality and no security concerns. They are failed refugee claimants.

I would add that, under the Protecting Canada's Immigration System Act, which was introduced by the government today, CBSA is introducing a very promising pilot project called the “assisted voluntary returns and reintegration pilot”.

As my colleague has mentioned, we are doing everything we can to stay in touch with failed refugee claimants, or claimants along the way, so they understand their rights and obligations and the consequences of their activities. When appropriate, that will facilitate voluntary removals. We have found this to be the most cost-effective way. The use of this kind of program in European Union countries, Australia, and others has been very effective and cost effective.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

If you had more resources, could you whittle down that 44,000 more effectively? In other words, the example I always give is that between the provinces there are non-returnable warrants, and the police say that unless it's a high-risk person they simply don't bother with them because they don't have the resources to do that.

If you had more resources and more agents working on this, could you reduce that number?

[Peter Hill]

Well, I'm working in the world with maximizing the resources I have. We are undertaking the development of a memorandum of understanding with our colleague departments, such as Human Resources and Skills Development Canada, to exchange information so we can identify if people are in Canada collecting benefits. That's one way in which we hope to be able to address the warrant inventory. We are undertaking a number of other measures to deal with the issue by reallocating resources and being smarter in using good management practices.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Do you have adequate manpower or staff to deal with this at the current time?

[Peter Hill]

Yes. We are fully utilizing the staff we have. We're pleased with the staff we have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Welcome, Mr. Albrecht, to the public safety committee. We look forward to your questions.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

Thanks for the opportunity.

I want to pick up on a comment that Mr. Scarpaleggia made earlier about the mass arrival of asylum seekers and the inference that these folks are detained for a year.

There has been a lot of misinformation in the public that they are all detained for a year, so thank you for clarifying that it's only until their refugee determination has been decided.

I'm not 100% sure, but I believe the bill that was tabled today clarifies some of the possible miscommunication related to the detention of young people. Will those in a certain age bracket no longer be detained? Can you clarify that for me, Mr. Hill?

[Peter Hill]

Thank you very much. I'd be happy to try to clarify that.

According to the bill that was tabled today, individuals who are under 16 will be exempt from the mandatory detention system. In addition, there is a special clause for individuals to apply to the Minister of Public Safety for early release from detention. The minister can order the release in exceptional circumstances of vulnerable persons, for example. These are two measures that have been implemented to support the detention regime under the new legislation.

[Harold Albrecht, Conservative, Kitchener—Conestoga, ON]

I thank you for clarifying that. In my riding, people have contacted my office because they have been misinformed about the length of detention. Many of them are assuming that it's a full year regardless of what happened. I think it's important that the accurate facts are out there.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Albrecht.

Thank you to our guests for attending today.

I would also like to add that if you suddenly think of information you have that might be pertinent to our study, or if you second-guess some of the answers you've given—you've given very good answers, but there may be more information because I cut you off—please feel free to provide that information to our committee. We will circulate it and see that everyone gets it.

Thank you for being here today.

Mr. Scarpaleggia...?

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

After the witnesses leave, I just want to ask about a point of information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay. We'll adjourn.

Thank you for being here.

Mr. Scarpaleggia has a question.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Yes, I just—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

On the record or off the record?

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

On the record, as the meeting ends.

As you know, I submitted a motion last week for the committee to have at least one or two days of hearings. How would I go about moving that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Basically, now that you have.... You just notify the desk. We can put committee business down, and if you want to let us know when you are going to do that, we can work it out.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Maybe next time...? Tuesday...?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay. We can arrange that, then.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

Okay.