Public Safety Committee on Oct. 6th, 2011

[Kevin Snedden]

The random urinalysis stats. On a random basis, we do urinalysis testing of 5% of the population. At Collins Bay when I first arrived, we had a relatively high refusal rate, albeit I can't remember the percentage off the top of my head. So between our positives and our refusals, we had a significant number. That's a concern for a warden because, if nothing is going to be anything detected, I'm concerned why they're refusing.

One of the positive outcomes that indicates to me that we're having an impact is that we've seen an improvement in our urinalysis results; there are fewer positives and substantially fewer refusals.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

There may be other reasons for those fewer refusals. I would image there may be other consequences, or carrots, or sticks.

Here's a comment by Dr. Julio Montaner, one of the world's leading researchers for HIV/AIDS treatment and now prevention. His model has been adopted by China as a whole. His comment is that the best way to prevent HIV/AIDS infections is to have fewer people in prison. We did hear that it's seven to ten times more likely for a person to be living with HIV/AIDS, with all of the attendant costs for our health system, if they've been in prison than the general population.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

Point of order.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Well, this is about drugs.

[Wai Young, Conservative, Vancouver South, BC]

I don't see how AIDS is about drugs. I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I'm going to give a little latitude to Ms. Murray.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

One of the primary causes of HIV--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madam Murray, I'm speaking now.

Part of what we are looking at is needle exchanges, the use of needles, and hepatitis. All those things may be part of it, but again our discussion is on drugs and alcohol in prisons.

Continue, Mr. Snedden, or Ms. Murray, whoever it was--

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I was actually asking a question.

Considering that a major cause of HIV/AIDS is dirty needles and that we know that drugs are in the prisons and prisoners are using drugs, my question has to do with overcrowding of prisons. For British Columbia that's especially of concern.

Does overcrowding frustrate the human resource goals that you have, Mr. Normington? Does it impact on the ability to have mentoring, training, the kind of support, interaction, engagement needed with offenders? Does the density of prisoners in a prison affect that?

The other question, Mr. Snedden, is whether overcrowding, from your perspective, in any way affects the work you're trying to do to reduce the amount of drugs in the prison.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Ms. Murray.

Unfortunately, he won't have time to answer the question because we're well over the time allotted.

We'll move back to the New Democrats, and Mr. Chicoine.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Good afternoon. Thank you to the two witnesses for being here. It is much appreciated.

A lot has been said about the balanced ways in which to combat the presence and use of drugs in prison. Over the past few years, more money has been injected to provide correctional officers with more tools to prevent drugs from entering the prison. I think there has also been over the past few years, an increase in the number of programs to help inmates deal with their addiction to drugs.

I would like you to say a few words about the effectiveness of these two measures. You spoke of the increased number of tools. That was quite good. Some seem to be working and seem to mean that fewer drugs are circulating in the prisons.

I would like you to elaborate on the increase, over the years, of the programs available in prison, to verify the effectiveness of the two approaches. I would like you to provide more detail on both approaches. Do you think increasing both is a good thing? Is a little more money needed to prevent drugs from entering the prison? If not, should there be an emphasis on programs, which still seem to be lacking? I would like your assessment of these two approaches which I consider to be balanced.

[Kevin Snedden]

Regarding the introduction of drugs, as I've mentioned, we've had some instances where we've seized drugs and seen a reduction in our positive urinalysis and refusal rates.

With respect to increasing programs, I can speak specifically for Collins Bay. We have increased the number of program delivery officers who provide our core programming. I'm not an expert in it, but as Mr. Sapers mentioned, the organization is piloting a new model for program delivery.

The other thing at Collins Bay as well is that we've had a lot of focus on the program side. The program side isn't just about offenders sitting in substance abuse programs, but also about trade skills, education, and things of that nature. It's a multi-faceted approach that I'm proud of at Collins Bay. So far this fiscal year, for core programming, I think we've had approximately 154 men complete a program. On any given day, we have 166 offenders enrolled in our school. During the last fiscal year we had two graduations and, I believe, we had 48 men receive their grade 12 education. They came into our system without it. We also have an industry shop run through CORCAN Industries that has a welding certification program. It's an accredited training delivery agent and the inmates are getting certificates in level one and level two welding. And just anecdotally, of the eleven gentlemen who have taken part in that program and been released, seven of them have secured employment in the community in a related field.

I don't have the level of detail with me to give you a specific example of a particular inmate doing this and that happened. But as the warden of the institution, I can say that having from that balanced approach and looking at the programs, the education, and vocational training as a whole, we're seeing improvements in the ability of our men to get education in the institution and for us to get the number of programs that we need delivered.

I don't have my waiting lists with me, but I know that we've been working on them. Mr. Sapers has mentioned them. Those waiting lists are coming down at Collins Bay Institution, so we have fewer people waiting to get them. We're seeing positives in a number of different areas there.

I don't know if that entirely answers your question or not.

[Sylvain Chicoine, NDP, Châteauguay—Saint-Constant, QC]

Yes, very well. It was just a question of assessing the situation. There has been an increase in the money allocated to all this.

Let us say that your institution needed even more. Hypothetically speaking, an additional $50 million in resources is injected. In order to decrease drug abuse in prison, where should we be investing that money? Should it be directed more toward monitoring, programs, or both in a balanced approach? Where would you invest that money? If you had full discretion for allocating that money in any way you saw fit, what would you do?

[Kevin Snedden]

In a hypothetical world where somebody came and said here is x number of dollars to divide as you wish, my answer would be that I was not sure. I'd have to take a step back and look at what I already had and divide it up. I go back to the need for a balanced approach. I think it's a little misleading when we get down into the dollar figures, that is, x number of dollars for this and x number of dollars for that.

Through reinvestment Collins Bay has received some additional resources for program delivery. I think you have to be careful about trying to equate every activity on a dollar value, because we have been able to do some things and produce results without the dollar values always having to be equal. The anecdotal part of that has to do with integrating both sides of the house so that we don't look at the world in silos. We need to blend those silos between interdiction programs, parole officers, and education. I think we're achieving that goal so that all of the moneys are about drug interdiction, versus hiving them off individually.

Some of the other witnesses commented on individuals who may have got into trouble and been removed from a program because they went to segregation. I've had cases at Collins Bay where in the morning we have had an observation report by staff indicating that such and such an offender is decompensating. Spontaneously, without the warden's having to tell the staff what to do, we'll have staff from the program side of the house, the security side of the house, and supervisory staff saying what needs to be done. We may have a program delivery officer who has a rapport with this gentleman and might be able to bring multi-disciplinary resources to bear. That integration is happening at Collins Bay without my having to prescribe it artificially. To me that shows that integration is working.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

I'm going to give a little time to Mr. Aspin.

And for committee members, Ms. Hoeppner wants to bring up a point at the end.

Mr. Aspin.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm a new member and this is not my field of expertise. I appreciate your coming. I have learned a lot from your testimonies this morning.

I'm interested, Mr. Snedden, in your comments about bank accounts for prisoners. We've heard a lot about drugs and currency in prisons. I'm curious about whether bank accounts would help prisoners dealing drugs. Are you able to monitor their accounts, or is this a rights issue? Can you comment on bank accounts and their ability to facilitate transactions?

[Kevin Snedden]

It's been my experience that because the approved institutional accounts held by the offenders have a transfer limit of no more than $500, they don't play a significant role. They're not providing them access to moneys. We do monitor their accounts. If they have moneys coming in from various sources that we have concerns or suspicions about, we'll refer those types of things to police authorities. We do have a number of limits and constraints around the offender bank accounts. The potential is there to use those funds to buy canteen items and things like those and then use them as a currency; but, again, we can monitor their spending and the moneys in their accounts.

In a world of technology, doing your banking through a third party in the community is the preferred option. Our intelligence folks could give you a much more articulate explanation about the black market and the drug subculture. I can just give you my personal perspective and experience as warden. With telephone and Internet banking, if I'm going to purchase narcotics from you, you would simply give me the price and I'd have to get a hold of my wife, girlfriend, or community contact to move the money to the bank account number you provided me with. The money would then get moved in the community, where it's somewhat beyond the purview of the Correctional Service of Canada.

That said, because we have the intelligence capacity and do cell searching and things of that nature, we do glean intelligence of these types of things and are then able to work with police partners to track down the movement of money. We do try to combat that.

[Jay Aspin, Conservative, Nipissing—Timiskaming, ON]

Another thing, Mr. Chairman, that I was curious about was Mr. Sapers's comment that elements of a coherent and comprehensive anti-drug strategy should have performance indicators. He suggested a number of them. We spend $120 million to attack this problem.

Could you comment briefly on what kind of indicators are there now and whether they are annual metrics?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you. We're right at the end of your time.

Could you give a quick answer, please.

[Kevin Snedden]

We do try to look at results and track them around seizures, urinalysis rates, and homemade alcohol production. The commissioner mentioned that as you see drugs decreasing, you sometimes see the latter increasing. So we do watch all of those types of indicators to try to have as best an assessment as we can about the results for our dollars.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Ms. Hoeppner, you have a piece of committee business perhaps.

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

Yes, I know we had a brief discussion as a committee about possibly doing some travel in relation to this study. I think from the testimony we've heard so far, if we are all in agreement and our whips are in agreement, it might be beneficial to go to Kingston to meet and talk with some of the investigators there who are working on the drug problem—not just in the prisons but also outside.

If the rest of the committee is in agreement with that, Mr. Chair, I am wondering if you could look into making those arrangements when we come back after the Thanksgiving break.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We would do that on a day trip. Is that what I'm to understand?

[Candice Bergen, Conservative, Portage—Lisgar, MB]

That's what I think we could do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Sandhu, you wanted to speak to this.