Public Safety Committee on March 5th, 2013

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Just for my information, can you tell us which provinces do have their own programs?

[Trevor Bhupsingh]

There are currently five, so it's Ontario and Quebec and then the three prairie provinces, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. My understanding is that the City of Montreal has one as well.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

In a province like British Columbia, there is no provincial program. What would happen to those short-term emergency protection cases? Maybe that's more appropriately directed to the assistant commissioner.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

The program in British Columbia is an integrated program. The act provides for emergency measures if it is a short term, and they could certainly enter the federal program if the requirements are met.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

So there is a provincial program in British Columbia?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

It's an integrated program.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Because it's primarily delivered by the RCMP?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Yes.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

How would municipal departments in British Columbia fit into that?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

I can ask my counterpart here who deals with that agency more regularly.

[Insp Greg Bowen, Officer in Charge, Witness Protection Operations, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

In the province of British Columbia, the integrated program has a representative from a law enforcement agency in British Columbia embedded within the RCMP federal witness protection program offices. There is no limitation, I believe, to the number of officers from B.C. who can participate in it. I understand it's a system that seems to work very well in the province of British Columbia. It is a federal witness protection program, but we have municipal members working within the context of the RCMP offices there.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

One of the concerns we've heard is about costs and municipalities, and I'm starting to understand where that comes from. Can you just walk me through it? If a municipal police force has someone who is admitted into the program, my understanding is that eventually they will be billed back for all the costs associated with that witness protection. Is that true?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

If there's entry into the federal witness protection program, there would be cost-recovery sought, but not for the salary dollars of the federal employees who are working within the program.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Just the direct costs?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

The direct costs associated with the protection of the witness.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

When you say now that you'll be dealing with provincial officials on the witness protection program, it doesn't mean that you won't be dealing with the RCMP or the municipal officials who have candidates for the program. You just mean for the administration of the program?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

No. Within the new legislation we're looking to the provinces to designate, and we will help work with them and train those people designated to even further streamline the process of obtaining the federal documents. But we will continue to work with our provincial partners, absolutely.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

In terms of costs, I know you have to budget for these things, but witness protection might have different costs depending on the individual and the kind of case. Is there an average figure you use per case for costing of the witness protection program?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

I think in the example we use, if you are looking at a family of four for a year, it's roughly $60,000.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Okay. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Garrison.

We'll now move to Mr. Hawn for seven minutes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you again to the witnesses for coming.

One of the things the Air India commission noted was that the program was not fully attuned to the terrorism environment. What changes have we made to deal specifically with the terrorism environment? What changes has the RCMP made in training and that sort of thing?

[Trevor Bhupsingh]

There were three important recommendations coming out of Air India, and obviously the first one was the independence. Certainly I think the Air India commission of inquiry recommended an independent body to manage terrorist protectees. We just felt that the program was best managed with the RCMP.

But picking up on the theme of independence, as was mentioned by the assistant commissioner, the process of investigations and the program itself in terms of management have been clearly separated.

There was also a recommendation coming out of Air India that was equally important, which was that terrorist protectees should be included in the witness protection program. There wasn't, under an existing act, an ability to do that, so one of the things proposed in Bill C-51 is to expand the mandate of those organizations that can make recommendations and referrals to the RCMP. Those will now include organizations with a national security, national defence, and public safety mandate. That's something else that's been picked up on.

Then I think there were some recommendations coming out of the Air India inquiry around culturally sensitive training. I know the RCMP has picked up on that training and has been doing that for many years.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

When we're dealing with terrorists or terrorist witnesses, where do you draw the line with somebody who you want to protect for their information but who is also frankly a terrorist?

I assume, Assistant Commissioner Shean, that we deal with them under the law, as we normally would in the case of any other terrorist.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Entering into the witness protection program offers no one any more protections against any breaches of law.