Public Safety Committee on March 5th, 2013

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

No.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

So we don't really know, with what we have in front of us, the magnitude of the expenditures.

The reason I keep coming back to this is that there was, and still is, I believe, a statement on the RCMP website that for smaller law enforcement agencies—small municipalities or for first nations police forces—that cost is often an impediment to investigations when use of the witness protection program might be an advantage.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Cost is a consideration in any investigation you're going to undertake. If the witness protection program is envisioned there, it's certainly something whoever is undertaking an investigation has to consider.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

In the emergency protection, you're talking about expanding to 180 days. Given the nature of court delays in some of the provinces—I know we have some quite long delays in the province of British Columbia, and I think elsewhere in the country—delays for getting things into court often go beyond 180 days. So what is that 180-day period related to in terms of the increase?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

The 180 days is the ability to afford us emergency measures to be able to ensure that the witness is in an area where the witness is protected. We can do the necessary assessments if we have to obtain a secure name change and we are able to put them into a stream where we're assured that they're going to be protected while the court matter unfolds.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

So there wouldn't be any relationship between that and whether or not they had actually testified in court in a case or not. They might go into the witness protection program before the court case is concluded?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

That's normally the case.

[Randall Garrison, NDP, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

That's normally the case.

We're at the point in questions here in the committee where I hope we'll maybe have some of the more front-line people who can talk a little bit more about how this works operationally, because I think the question the chair asked a minute ago is one I'm still grappling with. If you have the criteria for admission to the program and the decision is made later, how can the front-line law enforcement officer use the existence of the witness protection program to encourage people to give testimony that might endanger them? That's still a question I have.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Between Greg and me, we know the program inside out, and I think the front line is aware of the existence of the program. Every province within the country has witness protection people assigned to them, so if they make a determination that they feel that this is a person they want to potentially enter the program, they will engage their local witness protection people during that investigation and they will provide the necessary advice they require.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Cannan.

Welcome to our committee, Mr. Cannan. You have five minutes.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

And thanks to our guests.

As the chair alluded to, I'm filling in today.

I'm very interested in whenever we can provide additional tools and resources for our protective services to keep our communities and streets safe, and also to provide a more efficient and safer Witness Protection Program Act. I think this is a very common-sense, streamlined, integrated approach, so I commend the committee and all the witnesses who have brought this recommendation forward today.

I was just reflecting on some of the back information and my own experience. I had an opportunity to go to a chiefs of police conference that was held in my riding. I have a friend who's a senior member of the municipal police and other police officers. One person I met was Toronto Chief Bill Blair, and he indicated that there is a lot of “fear caused by intimidation and the threat of retaliation in gang investigations”. Of course, it's a statistic that continues to grow. Organized crime in my community, in Kelowna, British Columbia, is a serious issue, and across the nation.

This is reinforced by Mr. Blair's comments. He said:

In Toronto, we have seen the fear caused by intimidation and the threat of retaliation in gang investigations. Witnesses with valuable information are deterred from coming forward. We support the government’s initiative as a valuable step in protecting public safety.

I just want to know if you could—whoever, all of you might have some comments—describe how you feel these changes to the witness protection program will encourage witnesses with information to come forward.

Thank you.

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

We welcome the changes that are here before the committee because they're going to streamline it. One of the bigger things that's within the provincial jurisdiction is in regard to the obtaining of federal documents. That's one positive.

Within the RCMP program, we've indicated a number of changes: actually separating the admissions from the operational nature of the business, ensuring that our program is protectee focused, the addition of psychologists, the addition of case management plans. It's to ensure that the people coming into the program recognize that we take this business very seriously, we take their protection very seriously, and we take them coming into the program, adapting to the program, and being able to be successful beyond the program very seriously.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

I applaud the hard work of the front-line officers and the investigators.

I was talking with Ms. Mugford before the committee started about a shooting in my riding in August 2011, a senior gang member, and there was a recent arrest for that. I went to a presentation in January that talked about almost a hundred different organized crime gangs in British Columbia alone. What happens when somebody within their own gang comes forward? Is that protection provided through this provincial organization, or does it fall under the federal...?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

It depends on who undertakes the investigation at the provincial level and what decisions they make. They can certainly be considered for entry into the federal program. At all times we don't detract from our process. We will do the proper assessment, and based upon that risk assessment we'll make decisions accordingly. But because the person comes from a gang background it does not preclude them from admission into the program. We will follow the process.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

You said the average cost is around $60,000. Can you give us the summary of how those costs would be incurred?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

As we shared earlier, you're helping that particular family on the road to becoming self-sufficient, so they're going to have to live somewhere, depending on what their educational needs would be, what their particular training needs would be, if they have any health concerns that have to be looked after. So those types of things are considered going forward.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Presently under the federal program, witnesses are referred from any law agency in Canada, as well as some foreign agencies. What specific foreign agencies can refer to the program?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

Based upon decisions by Citizenship and Immigration and the Minister of Public Safety, there can be admissions into the witness protection program in Canada from outside jurisdictions.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Is there any expansion with this new amended bill?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

None that I anticipate.

[Ron Cannan, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

The disclosure to protect: how does this change from the present legislation?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

It's just that the protection umbrella is expanded.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cannan.

We'll now move back to Mr. Scarpaleggia, please.

[Francis Scarpaleggia, Liberal, Lac-Saint-Louis, QC]

I have a small number of questions left to ask.

Someone mentioned—I can't remember if it was Assistant Commissioner Shean or Inspector Bowen—that anyone contemplating entering the program has access to independent legal advice. That would be paid for by the RCMP or by someone; they wouldn't have to pay for it themselves?

[A/Commr Todd G. Shean]

From my experience, we'd pay for it.