Public Safety Committee on April 18th, 2013

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I do want to talk about first nations' policing, which you have talked about, and the problems they have, and in particular, my experience in northwestern Ontario, in the Nishnawbe-Aski Police Service, or NAPS. Your comments about the struggles that first nation police services are having are absolutely right on. They're very accurate, and thank you for saying that.

You did talk about a new model. What would your new model look like? You must have given this a little bit of thought. What can be done?

I heard from a retired police officer that when the OPP handed over that whole area to NAPS, everything was fine, everything was in good shape. Then something happened in the intervening years. As you know, in first nation communities—and you outlined Pikangikum in particular—there are some estimates from NAPS that we have communities in northwestern Ontario with an 80% addiction rate.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Right.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

That's astounding, and so policing has to change. Do you have any ideas? Do you want to expand on that new model a little bit?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Yes. It comes down to funding. In the current funding model—and this isn't a criticism of either the federal or the provincial government—there's the 52% that the feds give, the 48% that the province gives, and when you add those together it cannot sustain adequate policing in those communities. A 52:48 ratio is fine, but the monetary values have to increase to create infrastructure and keep people in communities who don't want to stay there. They'll quit and join some other police department just to get out of that community because the conditions are unbearable in some places.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Yes, the police services really are facing a huge uphill struggle.

We talk about the economics of policing. I think the general feeling around the table here is that when we talk about the economics of policing, we're talking about how we can save money and do things differently. But there are cases, with first nations' policing, for example, where money is going to be helpful—more money.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

It is, but it's bigger than that. There are other social service agencies that are absent from some of those communities, for obvious reasons—there's nowhere to work or live. If we put more officers in communities and they stayed there because there is a place to live and they are properly resourced, they'd get more involved. They'd be coaching kids. They'd get more involved in the community and do a lot of things that may prevent kids from going the addiction route or getting involved in crime.

What are the overall savings to society there? There may be an investment to be made that will result in overall savings.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

The OPP has been very good over the years in terms of providing additional support for first nation police services when there are real problems that need to be dealt with. Understandably, with the economics and with the OPP getting squeezed that support has started to diminish, at least according to NAPS. I wonder if you'd like to make a comment on that.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

I don't say it's diminished. Certainly, I think our pressures are such that at times it's difficult for us to routinely assist NAPS, but we do. We put officers in communities to assist them all the time. We take calls for them all the time. We support them in major investigations. Would they like that to be more? For sure. If they had enough staff who were properly trained and equipped themselves, then they wouldn't have to rely on us as much. Once again, we can't be all things to all people. I wish we could, but we can't. That's just a reality of life.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

One way for the OPP to become more economical is to provide more resources for first nation police services to do the job they would like to be doing.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

For sure, and once again that saves in society in many different ways, whether in a reduction in suicides, addiction, or people getting involved in criminal activity.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Let me go back to the comment you made in your opening remarks about different ways. You talked about how policing generally is not sustainable and there is a different way. It's not necessary, but if you could, include first nations in your answer. In general, what are those different ways? Would you want to expand on that a little bit?

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

We in the OPP have traditionally responded to every call for service in policing. We're proud of that. We'll send an officer 75 miles down a gravel road just to verify that a chainsaw's missing out of a truck. There's no reason that we should. We're proud to do it and it's a contact with the community, but we just can't do that anymore.

There are technological solutions. There's the diversion of calls to officers who maybe are physically being accommodated because they can't go out on the road anymore due to a physical issue, temporary or permanent. There's more analysis and technology we can use, but they have a cost to them too. You just can't snap your fingers and have a bunch of analysts who are civilians, maybe, who are looking at where the best place is to send officers and direct patrols. But if you find efficiencies elsewhere, you can convert positions to analytical positions, and maybe make better use of those positions and the salary dollars.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

You know that costs are going to continue to rise because most of the work you do is rural.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

In the OPP, yes. We police a lot of communities and some 30,000 or 40,000 people, as well as a lot of undeveloped and rural land.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

You need cars and you need the kind of equipment that is going to continue to increase over the years.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

It is.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I’m thinking of northwestern Ontario and the work that the Atikokan detachment, the Emo, and the Fort Frances detachments do.

Am I done?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, you're done. It was a great speech.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

I wanted to throw in some more compliments to the OPP and the work that they do in northwestern Ontario.

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

Thank you. I'm proud of our people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

Why are there so many on the highway? Because—

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Commr Chris D. Lewis]

There are either too many or not enough.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead, Mr. Gill.