Evidence of meeting #84 for Public Safety and National Security in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was community.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you very much, Commissioner.
We'll go back to Mr. Leef, please.
9:25 a.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Welcome back again, gentlemen.
We're trying to find recommendations, so I'll ask some questions not only to determine what you do but also with a view to determine if we continue along that vein or if there are areas you can recommend to be improved.
This is on auxiliaries. When I was working in Yukon, aside from being a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, I worked for the Yukon fish and wildlife service in the small community of Ross River. Periodically, members would knock on the door and utilize me as another armed peace officer in the community. There wasn't a real policy defined at that time, and there was a bit of concern on both sides when we did that. Of course I would never say no to a member knocking on my door to go out in the community and help them when needed. At that time, they looked at supernumerary constable appointments with other peace officers.
I know we never got that nailed down in the territories. Is that something that is continuing to be explored in northern Canada? Because in those communities you have your conservation officers, and federal Department of Fisheries and Ocean officers, and Canadian Wildlife Service officers, and sometimes Canada Customs folks, now that they're armed
Is there any appetite to look at, on a very limited role without having a police mandate, utilizing armed peace officers with certain levels of training to assist remote rural police officers when, logistically, bringing somebody in might not be possible from 500 kilometres away in a fly-in community?
9:30 a.m.
D/Commr Doug Lang
Thank you very much for that question.
Our policies in relation to backup and for officer response were a lot less strict up until about 10 to 12 years ago when we had Canada Labour Code rulings. There was a ruling out of Nova Scotia, I think, on a diving accident, where the Canada Labour Code was impressed upon us, that we have to comply with all the Canada Labour Code and all the rules. All the training that our auxiliaries and everyone goes through when they first get into the organization is how the Canada Labour Code applies to us and what that means, and the managing safely program for managers.
About 12 years ago, when we got into looking at officer response and the changing of our on-call policy to our operational response and who is on call and who is not on call—all those questions had to get cleared up. Each detachment commander had to go through exactly what you've brought up and to look at the other resources in his community. Who else in that community is able to back them up when something happens?
So we went through an inventory in every detachment across the country. Can we get away with having one member in that community because we have a couple of armed fish and game officers, because we have somebody else trained in firearms in that community?
We went down that road and came to the realization that, at the end of day, well, we have them there, but they're not there all the time and they're not 100% of the time available to us. While we will use them and engage them, and they're in our members' plans and emergency plans for response to events bigger than what we can handle, we can't, number one, rely on them for those kinds of things. I don't think we have any of them named as supernumerary specialists for us. We can come back with that answer.
We will make those designations for other people but normally not to have someone with a gun be able to come and help us respond.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Ryan Leef Conservative Yukon, YT
This is diverging a little from the auxiliary constable program. I remember we had to do a northern suitability test, coming out of training, to determine if...and that was really because the cost of moving a member north and some of the requirements they had to get there were both expensive and there were different operating conditions.
If you still continue with that, is that done for families? We talk a lot about members, but you both would know that families are as big a part as the operation of members of the RCMP, particularly when you start moving to rural remote Canada, as the members themselves and the success of the membership depends on success for the family. The moves become very costly if things deteriorate or if the family really doesn't want to be there and has to go. Is there northern suitability or preparatory training for families going north? Are there things that we can look at to determine whether we continue on that track or are there things we can do to improve the overall outcomes of people we're sending north so we reduce the costs of moving them?
I also have a final question on that. Do we apply that same sort of suitability testing to other units in the RCMP so that we have the best possible outcome and the cost of shifting them or moving them is decreased?
9:30 a.m.
Insp Tyler Bates
I can answer your question.
There are requirements that need to be met, medically and psychologically, in advance of occupying an isolated duration post or a northern post. It is not specific to just the member, but also the member's spouse as well. Prior to our last northern post, my wife and I both underwent that type of testing, and it continues today. It does create some staffing challenges. There are times where the suitability is not there for one reason or another, whether it's a medical issue that would have exorbitant medical costs for a family to go into a northern post and then require travel outside of that post for attention....
It's an extensive psychological testing process as well. There's a very lengthy questionnaire, and in most instances a face-to-face meeting with a psychologist to have further discussion on the suitability of an isolated remote posting.
9:35 a.m.
D/Commr Doug Lang
On the second part of your question—
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
I'll let you answer the question and then we'll come back. Right now we're a half minute over.
9:35 a.m.
D/Commr Doug Lang
Sorry.
Again, the Yukon has probably been at the leading edge of this. In fact, I have to remind myself of the name of the study...the “Sharing Common Ground” study. The territory of the Yukon has asked that members come to the Yukon with certain competencies, some of them being that they want to be involved in the community, they want to live in the north, and they want to learn about the aboriginal culture.
They've put in not so much a new standard but a new set of exigences that they want from our members coming in. The funny thing is that every community wants that. Everybody who joined the RCMP 20 or 25 year ago was either a hockey player or a baseball player, and they went into communities and played hockey and baseball. With the last number of recruits that I trained 15 years ago, one was a Ukrainian dancer, another was a basketball player, and another a woodworker. You can't send those people into certain communities and get them involved, unless that community has that level of involvement.
We are doing better screening in sending people to the north who have the attributes that northern communities want. But everybody wants that; it's finding that balance.
We have a lot of our recruits—it's sad to say—who don't want to do anything after work.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
May 2nd, 2013 / 9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Thank you very much.
Good morning again, gentlemen. Thank you very much for being here again.
Could you clarify something for me? Do auxiliary constables do any administrative work at all?
9:35 a.m.
Insp Tyler Bates
They help us with our administrative work, like filling in forms. They are involved in a lot of our administrative work.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
9:35 a.m.
Insp Tyler Bates
Correct.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Okay.
Earlier, you mentioned that recruiting auxiliary constables was somewhat of a difficulty for you, or that you were not putting a lot of effort into it. I imagine that human resources people recruit the auxiliaries and look after the male-female ratio and the representation of certain francophone communities. Is that correct?
9:35 a.m.
Insp Tyler Bates
We do not have programs specifically designed to recruit auxiliary constables. We already have difficulties and challenges in reaching the ratios we would like for regular members.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Does that also apply to more multi-ethnic communities, especially urban ones like Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver? I know that you do not have a lot of auxiliary constables, but are there regions with larger, ethnically diverse communities where you have difficulty in recruiting from those communities?
9:35 a.m.
Insp Tyler Bates
The commander has to consider the diversity in the community. We try to attract people from the communities where we provide our policing services, but it is the commander who tries to determine who those people are and to attract them.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
You also said that it works differently from province to province. What happens in Quebec and Ontario, which have provincial police forces? Do you have as big a proportion as in the other provinces? Are the tasks different?
9:35 a.m.
D/Commr Doug Lang
I don't think the auxiliary constables program exists in Quebec or Ontario.
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Yes, that is what I was thinking.
You also mentioned that their focus is on community work. But they are also trained, albeit superficially, in chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear defence. Can you give us more details? Are there situations in which they must be called in as back-up, such as for a chemical or biological attack?
And are they trained to deal with terrorist acts? That has been a reality in recent years.
9:35 a.m.
Insp Tyler Bates
The training is only for their own protection if they are ever exposed to situations like that. We try not to expose them. But it is possible, since they are with us in our police cars. When we get to the scene of an incident, it is certainly possible that they may be exposed, but we try to protect them. That is why they get that training.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Jean Rousseau NDP Compton—Stanstead, QC
Do you think that the approximately 100 hours of training that they get before going into service are enough? Should they have to do more? You are probably going to tell me that, of course, they must do more. So should they do more? Should we have a greater number of auxiliary constables in specific situations?
9:40 a.m.
Insp Tyler Bates
We must make sure that the tasks and functions that we assign to them have no associated risk. It is essential for us not to assign them tasks that would expose them to danger. I believe that the training they receive is sufficient. But we always have to make sure that they are not given any dangerous tasks.
9:40 a.m.
D/Commr Doug Lang
I would like to add a clarification about the length of the training. It is not three weeks in a row. It is three weeks of training that includes a weekend course and an online course, for example. Three weeks is the total duration of the training, logically speaking. Auxiliaries only have to have taken two or three courses in order to be able to get into a police car with another RCMP member. After spending from one to three years in the same detachment, they can take the other courses.