Public Safety Committee on May 9th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I'll hear Mr. Leef on a point of order.

[Ryan Leef, Conservative, Yukon, YT]

Mr. Chair, I think, in fairness to our witnesses, that these broad-based questions about departmental cuts and across the spectrum cuts are not fair. We asked them to come here to answer questions about the safety of Canada's rail system. If the members opposite have direct questions about budgetary measures that would directly impact transport or rail safety, I think it might be fair for the witnesses to answer, but I don't think to ask them on a completely departmental level is fair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Leef. In fact I asked our clerk for the motion that we've asked them to appear on, and I should remind the committee that we have asked them to appear at a meeting to brief the committee on current modes, systems, and procedures for protecting rail transport in Canada, passengers, and freight against terrorism.

I think what Mr. Leef says is probably correct. I would encourage you.... The broad question of whether there have been cuts that have affected the safety of rail...but we're more specifically looking into the procedures for protecting rail transport in Canada: the systems, the modes, not the overall question of budgetary....

Go ahead.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

If it's going to be a point of order and not on my time, I want to answer to that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

It's definitely not on your time. We haven't taken your time off.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

All right, that is perfect.

In fact, in the presentations, some witnesses told us that they wanted to look at the broader issues. Thus, I am responding to the presentations made here. The witnesses themselves wanted to address these broader issues. Therefore, in that context, I believe that my questions are in keeping with the rules.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I'll watch it. I hadn't interjected myself yet, because I think your questioning was getting close to the edge here. We want a briefing on the systems, the procedures, and the modes of security on transport.

Continue, please.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I will.

Mr. Davies, could you speak to that?

[John Davies]

In very broad terms, during the deficit reduction action plan discussions, the national security advisor, together with other deputies from the community, met consistently to discuss the impact of cuts on national security. There was an ongoing dialogue among deputies during that time.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much.

I will now ask Mr. Tremblay a question that addresses the concerns of my colleagues opposite, I believe.

I referred to the cuts at the RCMP. Does this have a direct effect on your ability to work with VIA Rail to protect the security of railways and counter possible terrorist attacks?

[C/Supt Larry Tremblay]

Thank you for your question.

Mr. Chair, in very broad terms we believe that the recent arrests have demonstrated that we do possess the ability, in close collaboration with the S and I community and various departments within the GOC, to work with the private sector to counter what was a very serious terrorist threat to the rail system.

I'm not sure that I can go into more detail than that.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you very much.

My next question is for Mr. McDonald.

Earlier, you started talking about certain programs of the public security and anti-terrorism initiative, which allowed Transport Canada, among others, to collaborate with VIA Rail on railway security.

Could you expand on what you said? We know that there are a lot of programs in this initiative, and that it is difficult to track where the money was invested, the results and where any residual money went.

Could you tell us more about certain other initiatives you used to ensure the security of our railways?

[Gerard McDonald]

Thank you for your question.

As I indicated earlier, we've had two major initiatives. One is the Transit-Secure program that ran from 2006 to 2009, I believe. That was to improve security at railway stations and operations, and urban transit operations. That provided funding for our organizations to improve what they had.

[Élaine Michaud, NDP, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Allow me to clarify something about this program.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Just let him finish. We're out of time.

[Gerard McDonald]

It funded things such as construction equipment, training, public awareness, signage, internal assessments, surveillance technologies, infrastructure in these locations, security centres, and access control measures.

As I indicated, we also have the MOU with the railways. We work regularly with the railways to enhance the MOU, make sure that it's lived up to, and ensure that the railways are meeting their obligations in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. McDonald.

We'll now move back to the government, to Mr. Norlock, please.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Through you to the witnesses, thank you for appearing today.

Just to set the record straight, the Auditor General said that we didn't find anything that gave us concern that the money was used in any way it should not have been. Then when he appeared before committee—

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

On a point of order. I don't think that we're talking about that anymore.

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Absolutely, Mr. Chair, they're not going to get away with misinformation. I'm speaking to my constituents at home. They've been somewhat misled by the type of questioning that goes on here. There has been no misappropriation and at the department—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead.

[John Rafferty, NDP, Thunder Bay—Rainy River, ON]

It's exactly the same as Mr. Leef's point. We've left that line of questioning. I will certainly return to that if you wish, when it's my turn.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Norlock, maybe word it in a way or—

[Rick Norlock, Conservative, Northumberland—Quinte West, ON]

Let me go to another issue.

One of the questions had to do with CBSA and cuts. If I remember correctly, Mr. Chair, looking at some of our past budgets—and if any of the witnesses who may be directly responsible for CBSA want to confirm this—we've increased front-line.... Number one, because terrorists are not nice people, we've armed our border guards for their safety and the safety of Canadians. Number two, we've increased front-line CBSA officers to 26%.

But if I might go to the VIA Rail folks and the RCMP with regard to security cameras, based on my 30 years of policing, security cameras have in the past and continue.... I'll go right to the RCMP. Wouldn't the proof of the pudding with regard to security cameras in areas of concern and in our cities and towns, in your opinion and based on the Boston experience.... Security cameras significantly reduced the investigation time in order to catch the bad guys. Wouldn't that be true, Chief Superintendent?

[C/Supt Larry Tremblay]

Thank you.

I think security cameras have been used by law enforcement in order to bring facts within the evidence chain. So we have made use of security cameras for law enforcement purposes. It has been extensively used for evidence purposes in court.